Sex Gets Real 278: Entitlement, recovery, and sex ed with Anne Hodder-Shipp

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tl;dr Anne Hodder-Shipp joins us to talk sex ed, entitlement in relationships, and sex after recovery and while sober.  

News!

1. If you could use some support around your relationship to your body, to pleasure, to sex and desire, I have a few spots available for in-person coaching in Vancouver and in my online virtual practice. Check out the Work With Me page for details.

This week, I’m joined by Anne Hodder-Shipp, an experienced and no bullshit sex educator who does incredible work on the front lines of sex education and behind-the-scenes helping with the marketing and promotion of many popular brands you likely know.

We dive into the importance of authenticity in dating and relationships, why being in a relationship does not entitle you to your partner’s body and the steps you can take if you’ve behaved that way in the past, Anne’s awesome new sex education certification program through EDSE (there’s a new course in November – if you’re interested, SIGN-UP NOW!), and the complexities of sex when you’re in recovery or newly sober.

Anne also shares how natural dreamwork, a way to get in touch with your emotions, helped her doing some healing work.

Have questions of your own you’d like featured on the show? Send me a note using the contact form in the navigation above!

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About Anne Hodder-Shipp:

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Podcast Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So, welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Hey, you welcome to this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. I am chatting with Anne Hodder-Shipp, who is a sex educator with tremendous experience. She has created this really awesome company called “Everyone Deserves Sex Education” or EDSE, which you’ll hear her talk about in this episode. We talked all about sex education, getting certified, creating programs around sex. Plus, we also talk about Ann’s work with treatment groups, people who are in recovery, who are sober, and works not only with teens in residential treatment, but also with adults. We unpack some of what it’s like to be doing stuff around sex education. When you are in recovery, and sober. 

Dawn Serra: I’ve gotten so many emails over the years from people who are really struggling with how to experience pleasure and sex when they’re newly sober so Anne and I talk about that. We also talk about how Datesy he named her one of the most influential dating experts of 2019 and what they had to say about her was amazing. Plus, we dive into what it means to be entitled to sex with a partner. We talked about the performance of sex that happens culturally and the ways that so many of us enter into relationship feeling like that means then the door is open to just getting sex whenever you want it. So, we really dive into some of the emotions of that, ways that we can hold ourselves against accountable, and do better in relationship. I think you’re really going to like where we go in this conversation. 

Before I read you Anne’s bio, I just wanted to let you know I still have a few spots available, if you’re in the Vancouver area here in British Columbia, I have a couple of spots left on Fridays for in person, individual and couples coaching. That is, my office is downtown Vancouver and if you could use a little bit of help with body trust, confidence, relationships, sex, pleasure, and you’d like to work with me; you can find out more at dawnserra.com. Serra is SERRA. And I would love to work with you. If you’re not in the Vancouver area, I do have a few spots, just a few, my calendars a little tight for online and virtual coaching. So you can also learn more at dawnserra.com. I would love to hear from you. And as always, please keep your emails coming. You have been sending me some wonderful things these past couple of weeks and I would love more. What are you struggling with? What do you need help around? Where are you confused? Where are you not sure and where to go next? What would you love to learn more about? What would you need more resources around? Anything and everything that I might be able to help you with when it comes to sex pleasure bodies, relationships – all the ways that we move through life, social justice. Email me You can either reach out using info at sexgetsreal dot com or you can head to dawnserra.com and there is a contact form there that you can use anonymously. I would love to hear from you. 

Dawn Serra: Patreon supporters, there is a bonus chat me and Anne talk all about something really fun, which you will hear in the main episode. If you support it $3 a month and above, you get weekly bonus content from me. There’s a huge backlog at this point. It works out to, I don’t know, like 75 cents a week or something like that. And you get bonus conversations, questions, reflections, all kinds of stuff. That’s also where you can hear me and Anne talking about this wonderful little bonus idea that we dive into. 

So, let me tell you a little bit about Anne. Anne Hodder-Shipp is a multi-certified sex and relationship educator with professional training in breath work and holistic dream work. She boasts a unique understanding of age appropriate sex education, trauma-informed healing, critical thinking, and emotional intelligence. And she brings a fun, friendly sex positive facilitation style to every session, group or event she hosts. Utilizing a non-judgmental and no BS approach, and happily helps clients of all ages, experience levels and lifestyles heal, learn, and grow. In addition to her private practice and public workshops, Anne is the founder of and lead educator at Everyone Deserves Sex Education – EDSE. Anne also leads treatment groups for clients recovering from substance use disorder, eating disorders, compulsive sexual behavior, and other stigmatized illnesses. So here is my conversation with Anne. Enjoy. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Anne. I am really looking forward to talking to you this morning.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Thank you so much for having me.

Dawn Serra: Oh, you’re so welcome. You’re doing, and have been, for such a long time so much awesome work around sex and consent, and marketing sex, and all the things. And where I would love to start, because it delighted me, was you were recently named one of the most influential dating experts of 2019 by Datesy. And a little quote that was in their meme was, “The sex educator who doesn’t have time for your bullshit.”

Anne Hodder-Shipp: I still laugh about that because it was really– I don’t even understand. I mean, I’m so flattered but I was like, “I’m who? I’m what? Okay.” It’s was so out of left field. And, I guess the thing they gleaned from me when they were talking to me was that, “Oh, she does not take any shit from zero people. That’s going to be her whole vibe.” And at first I was like, “Oh, no, does that make me seem like I’m inaccessible or not compassionate about people’s bullshit – because we all have it?” But then I asked a couple of friends. And they’re like, “No, no, that’s fantastic.”

Dawn Serra: It is. It’s totally is fantastic. Yeah. And I also love for the quote, that was with the little meme that you said, “There’s no space for games or rules. The more authentic you are with yourself and others, the happier and more accepting you’ll be both in and out of a relationship.” And that’s something we spend a lot of time kind of diving into here on the show, is just how much of our understanding of sex, relationships, hookups, and the ways that we’re kind of moving through our lives is based on so many rules and games and myths. Because most of us never got any kind of sex education or having healthy relationships modeled for us. So I love that quote so much. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Thank you. Yeah, it’s one of those things that… The number one thing I talk to people about– Often it comes up in dating, but even in general, how do I succeed more in X, Y, Z thing I’m doing and what can I do? What are what are five things that I could do differently? Or, what did you do or what did they do? I mean, you can totally use all that for inspiration. But if you’re following someone else’s rules or a set of steps or expectations that you’ve made for yourself, you’re not actually acting. You’re not living and behaving according to what feels right to you. You’re actually performing. And as as you know, of course, when we talk about sex with people, one of the number one things we talk about is, is sex a performance for you or your partner? What does that even mean to you when I asked you about performance? Because performance ends up playing such a huge role in so many of our lives. 

We perform on social media, whether we mean to or not. We’re performing when we’re out with certain friend groups and we want to try to leave a very specific impression. We’re performing sometimes with family and because we have to, because it’s clearly not okay for us to be our authentic selves with our family. Or other times, it totally is, but we think it’s not. So again, we’re always performing. And I say that not like a criticism like, “Oh, don’t perform. You’re an idiot or you’re bad or you’re broken if you perform.” It’s like, no, you’re a human if you perform. But the key is, are you aware when you’re doing it? Is it a choice? Are you choosing to code-switch and to adjust the way that you appear in that group because it works for you in that moment? Are you doing it based off of some kind of rule or should statement or socially constructed judgment? And that’s where you get our power back and can make things like dating feel a little bit less exhausting.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Yeah, I was also thinking, too, around the performance piece. So many of the questions that I get here on the show, ultimately kind of tie back to, “I’ve been pretending to like a certain kind of sex with my partner. I’ve been pretending I’m okay with this thing my partner does. I’ve been trying to share this thing but I don’t know how.” And just all of the ways that we kind of go along with things that don’t really either feel aligned with us or that really aren’t very pleasurable. Now, we’ve kind of gotten ourselves into this place where if we admit our truth, it reveals that we haven’t been very forthcoming for a really long time. And we’ll find themselves kind of in that catch 22, which is ultimately what happens when we have been either performing for a while or we just haven’t known how to take up space. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Right.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. You have this other article that you were quoted in. You are quoted in so many amazing articles and pieces. It’s awesome.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: I’m really lucky. Yeah.

Dawn Serra: But there was this Bustle piece, where you were talking about transactional sex and this is something else that comes up a lot. I think any sex educator can speak to this. But I’d love to just hear a little bit more about your thoughts around transactional sex. You were quoted in the article saying, “You don’t owe sex to your partner and your partner doesn’t owe it to you. Be mindful of how sex plays a role in your relationship, and if you or your partner might be treating it like some kind of transaction.” What have you found in all the work you’ve been doing around the ways that we can sometimes treat sex as transactional?

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah, I find that it’s incredibly common for us to treat it that way because that’s how it’s presented to us. Often, because, as you know, the state of sex ed in our country is bismal. Our education comes from, usually, the media and messaging around us. And it’s indirect messaging, but a lot of it – it dehumanizes sex. It turns sex into a thing you can get or a thing that you need or you or thing you deserve. A thing you need to hunt down or a thing you need to fear and avoid. It’s a thing that you can hold in your hand or something like that. I kind of see similar conflation with the concept of love, where once you get love, you’re good. You got it, you can hold it, put it in your pocket, store it away. And it’s like no, actually, it’s more of an action and a verb than a noun. 

Similar with sex, we think that it’s a thing that we have to do that it’s part of the deal, not just with being a human, but with being in any type of relationship with someone. And that, of course, totally erases asexuality and anyone who has low desire or even low interest in general with physical act of sex. It also just gives us this really scrambled idea of what sex is supposed to be and mean. And it ultimately removes – there’s no space for any form of consent, especially affirmative or enthusiastic consent when you think sex is a is a thing someone has to do for you or you have to do for them.

Dawn Serra: Yes, yes. I think that’s something that gets lost a lot in the conversations around this kind of cultural expectation that to be in relationship is to have access to your partner’s body and to sex. And when that’s kind of our underlying belief that we’re coming into relationship with, how can affirmative consent really be a part of it? If ultimately, you feel like you deserve this? You’re entitled to it? And if you’re partner says or your partners say “No” or “I’m not up for it” and then you behave in a way that is really entitled – There can’t be a really healthy, consensual, autonomous exchange inside of that.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Totally. I love the word entitlement because that really is… The word gets thrown around a lot, especially when we talk about toxic masculinity, as it should be. But I think that there’s also a little bit – it’s a little bit of a stigmatized word. It’s easy to forget that we all experience some level of entitlement, whether we’re even conscious of it. And if we do, it’s not that we’re unevolved or a terrible partner. It’s just one of those things, again, where when you do little check-ins with yourself about, “What’s going on with me? How do I feel? What do I want?” That kind of thing. You just being conscious of “Am I expecting something? Am I expecting a particular outcome on a situation? Or do I feel like I am entitled to be able to grab my partner’s butt whenever they’re walking by? Or do I feel entitled that my partner should, I don’t know, laugh or respond in the affirmative anytime that I go up to them and grab them or grind up and try to be cutesy and funny? Do I feel like I’m entitled to be able to do that as a way to initiate intimacy or to even just get attention? And noticing instead how do my partners react if and when I do stuff like this and does it contradict my expected response? And does it actually give me the result I think that it should? If the answer to any of those questions are no, and you can just sit there and say, “Interesting. Okay, what do I need to do different?”

The way that we often will then respond to that very quickly is, “Well, it’s their fault. They’re uptight or they’re just not in line with my humor or them them them.” Really, that’s an opportunity to just look inward and see, “Okay,” without judgment, even just, “All right, this isn’t working. This isn’t giving me the stuff that I think that it’s supposed to. Maybe I need to make some adjustments to what I feel entitled to or what I expect from the people around us around me.” Again, we start moving from this sort of performative way or we sweep away from the behaviors that we think that we should do because someone told us that it worked or we read it in a book or all that stuff. We just throw it away and we instead just behave and interact with people in ways that feels really right and authentic. And I would guess, you know, 70%-80% of the time, the outcomes might end up being a whole lot more desirable and pleasurable for everyone involved by doing it that way.

Dawn Serra: I really appreciate the invitation to reflect on the behavior and the ways that we are treating the people in our lives and to not shame ourselves, to not shrink it. Yes, feelings might come up, but I love this, “Well, maybe there’s something that I can do differently. Maybe I’m not validating my partner’s full humanity in the ways that I’ve been behaving to now. And there’s an opportunity for me to do different. So what does different look like? And how can I start doing that?” I think that there’s something really connecting around even being able to name that, “Hey, I’ve noticed that sometimes I don’t really honor when you pull away or you say no and it hit me. That’s not really how I want to do relationship with you. So I’d really like to try some different.” I mean, that to me, if someone said that to me, I would be really interested and connect around that, you know?

Anne Hodder-Shipp: It is so connecting. It’s also a tool. I think that it can be really powerful in relationships that have been sort of long term and it’s easy to just be going through life and just feel, I don’t know, like everything is the same or do things that have been the same way for years and years. But having these little check-ins to kind of see, “How have I actually shifted and changed in the ways that I like things and don’t like things?” And then also asking whatever partner or any of your long term partners asking the same question, basically – having one of those types of heart to hearts, where you’re just like, “How are things different? How have I changed and shifted in my values or how I feel or what I like?” And same with you and then you get to get new information about your partners. In exchange, things end up moving a lot smoother and it’s incredibly bonding. 

You just feel so much safer because you feel seen. Now you don’t have to wonder if your partner has noticed or realizes the things you’re trying to communicate through, I don’t know, body language or other types of messaging. Now you’ve actually had like an overt conversation talking about it. There’s no guessing anymore and you just feel really seen and understood. Those are things that really helped facilitate a sense of connection, intimacy, and emotional safety.

Dawn Serra: What’s striking me as you talk about that is how often, what I hear from people is, “But they used to like this.” And I think that that is true, yes. And we might feel disappointed that it’s not true anymore. But what is true and how can we react to and build based on what is true – if what is true is now there’s all this resentment because this other person felt like you were demanding access to their body. That’s true. So, then what do we do from here to start repairing that instead of “Well, they used to like it when I touched them or groped them this way. They used to like it when I took control.” Maybe that’s not true anymore because we all change. And just the growth that these check-ins allow for, then, as you said, allows us to feel seen. That’s pretty much at the base level what most of want.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: So true.

Dawn Serra: So you have this new, I don’t know how new it is, but you have this 25-hour certification program for sex educators through this awesome company that you’ve created called “Everyone Deserves Sex Ed.” And I’ve been so excited to see some of the people that are associated with the certification program you’re doing. Your next one is in November 2019. So anyone listening, if you want to do the certification program, totally do it. But you’ve got folks like Andrew Gurza, Tristan Taoramino, Cameron Glover – all people who have been on the show and I’m sure lots of other rad folks. Can you tell us a little bit about the program and why you created it?

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for mentioning it. I started “Everyone Deserves Sex Ed” – I call it EDSE. So if anyone hears that, they’re like, “What are you talking about?” I started it in 2015 just as a concept. So I could have sort of the educational arm of the company that I run to give it a home. And then years went by where I was just really busy working on stuff that I don’t have as much of a emotional connection to but I’m skilled at it and it pays my bills. And it got to the point where I started to really just get itchy in my skin. About a year ago, actually, I had a big shift in how my business had been running in a bunch of space got made kind of all at once, where I had some shitty clients, I had to fire– Things weren’t working out well. And then a couple of my sex ed contracts all ended up at the same time and so I realized, “Okay, now is the only time I’m going to be able to hunker down and just get the certification program done. Just fucking do it.” But I stopped thinking about it. Stop writing down ideas every couple of days – just fucking do it, basically. And so I did. 

The whole idea was inspired by my own process of trying to find trainings that made sense to give me support, tools, and confidence in the work that I was doing. And then I just had noticed, there just aren’t very many out there. There aren’t very many certifications that are straight to the point, they are not biased by old antiquated non-information about gender and relationships. They’re very few out there and the ones that I had been able to find, I already had taken; and I kept getting people asking me, “What was your path? Tell me, what should I do? I don’t want to necessarily be a sex educator, but I’m a social worker, and they didn’t give us any training and how to talk about gender. They didn’t give me any training about how do I respond to someone if they share that they’re having sex for the first time or they’re asking me questions about an encounter they had. No one’s told me how to not accidentally re-traumatize this person with my responses.” And I actually don’t really know the difference between gender non-conforming and terms. All the words that are confusing me and all the other things that come up. And I was like, “All right, yeah. This is a training that can be used as a real entry- intro, foundational training. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: So, even if you’re not going to be a sex educator, you can go somewhere, get 25 hours worth of content that is straight to the point. There’s no agenda other than offering the really key and most up to date information about these core subjects as is available. And then you once you pass the test and can show that you have some level of mastery over the material, you get a certificate and now you can use that to supplement whatever path you’re currently on. The real goal is just to really fill that gap that I keep hearing people have were in their current career, they just don’t know where else to go to get information and they can Google till the cows come home but they’re not even really sure what websites to focus on. And even the CDC has good information. But there’s no emotional component. They don’t they don’t teach you how to talk to people and manage your own judgments while you’re answering questions. They also don’t teach you how to even answer a question in an effective way to just give you stats. And even those stats are sometimes problematic. 

So anyway, it all just kind of boil down to “I’m just going to fucking do the thing that I wish had existed for me.” And it’s very inspired by the San Francisco Sex Information Program, because that was the first training I took that really changed the way my brain processed and suppressed information. I know that I tell every graduate to apply to SFSI if it’s accessible and available. And just knowing that it’s competitive and difficult to get into just due to the class size, I kind of see EDSE as something that people can do as a precursor while they’re waiting for CDC or if they are unable to travel or if CDC doesn’t work for them for whatever reason – CDC is 60 hours. And EDSE is 25. It kind of gives a bit of a one-on-one foundation so that if you do go to CDC, you’re not feeling like a deer in the headlights and it’s easier to then absorb some of the 201 or 301 level material when you’re already pretty good with the one-on-one. Maybe a little bit of 201 info from our program. I mean, that’s the main goal and we’re just going to keep building it. For some of the subjects that just there isn’t enough time to cram it all into 25 hours, I’m in the process of finding educators who would be willing to to create 60 and 90 minute modules available online so people can pick and choose. And it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to get a certification. Certification requires a bit more commitment but not everyone cares about that. Some people just want to get a bit of training to get some information and to be able to put on their resume that they completed a 90 minute module from EDSE. So, that’s sort of the next step. In this run of educators for our second training is just it’s so exciting and I’m so honored that they said yes, and that they wanted to join me on this.

Dawn Serra: Well, I think it just speaks to how hungry all of us in the industry are for more trainings like this. It’s so hard when people come to me and ask, “How do I get started? How do I do the thing?” And my answer has to be, ‘Well, this program is one you can go to but they have a lot of transphobic language and this one over here is ok but there’s zero anything about consent or disability.” And it’s like you got to patchwork the basics together. I know, I’m not the only one. But, I think the people that you’re seeing, say yes, being a part of this because it’s such a gaping hole in the industry and I love that you’ve created this resource for people.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Thank you. Yeah, I really… If you even asked me a year ago, I would have been like, “Meh, I probably wouldn’t get this done in time.” So, I’m still kind of in a weird place where it still isn’t almost real, even though it for sure is. And it’s kind of surreal that I was able to pull this off and build it the way that it’s being built, and I’m excited to see where I can take it. Some of the allied educators who are on board, I’m honored by how excited they are like it’s been really flattering and nice to tell the imposter syndrome voices in my head to shut the fuck up. Even if it just like, “They said it’s good so listen to them.” External validation is great for imposter syndrome. So anyway, I’ll be using their support, their ideas, and their enthusiasm as part of this program’s growth, especially growing it with the online component. So it’s even more accessible. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Is there something in the program that you’re particularly excited by or it’s a topic that when it comes up, you’re just so proud that this is something you get to do? Is there one thing that you’re like, “Ah, this is the best part!”

Anne Hodder-Shipp: You know what? Yes, but I feel like I’m so geeked into it but it’s not potentially exciting for anyone else. We get into discussing the model and answering questions, which is something I learned at CDC. We learn how to respond to questions in different ways, in different steps to really be able to identify, what does this client need from me? Do they just want a quick answer? Do they actually want suggestions? Or do they want me to fuck off once I answer the info? Do they actually need referrals out for additional support? And having this actual tool to use instead of trying to guess in the moment and mind read – I love going over that with attendees because we end up having these interactive portions after where everyone has to just fucking do it and try. We have a couple different exercises we do. 

It’s so fun for me to watch people wrap their head around the concept because I remember wrapping my head around it. And at first, it was just funky, weird, and awkward – kind of wobbling on a bicycle and thinking, “I’m never going to get this. This makes no sense.” And then all of a sudden, it just clicks and then you get it. It’s just really satisfying to watch people’s faces expressions go through it. And in addition to the Plissit model, we always go over a communication blocks that we often will get into thinking that it’s helping when we’re answering your question but really, it’s actually making things worse like cheerleading or sort of tangentializing and making something about you. With the intent of normalizing and trying to connect with your client, you’re actually totally removing their experience from the question and now you’re making it about whatever your experience was. And just being able to, without judgment, talk about – look at all these things that we all do because we’re all humans, and without making us wrong. Instead realizing like, “Oh, okay, interesting. Now I have a word for it. Now I can identify it when I’m doing it. So it’s easier to stop doing it in the future.” And it just, I don’t know, it brings this level of initial fear and “Oh, God” and then pretty soon shifts that into relief. I just love helping people get there because that that’s what really shifted the way I talked about sex and work with other people on a client level. 

I think the more people who can learn those types of skills, the better things are going to be because it’s really inadvertently like a conflict– what’s the word, almost conflict prevention, because you’re already able to communicate in a way that doesn’t stoke any flames that might be there already. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I appreciate that so much. I love this. I think the skill of being able to either explicitly ask or to begin noticing – is this person really just wanting to be heard and held and validated? Are they actually wanting resources? Do they actually want advice? Because a lot of times, people don’t really want advice. They just really want to know they’re still love, even if they share that thing. Yes, if more of us had an opportunity to not only know about it, but then to practice it and to feel uncomfortable with others who feel uncomfortable, that is such good stuff.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: It’s good training, really just diving in and experiencing your discomfort in the presence of someone else’s and being able to just see what that’s like. At first it can feel like, I don’t know, shamey like, “Oh, I’m screwing it up. Look, I screwed up.” But then it’s like, “Actually, look. Look how connected I am with this other person now. We’re feeling the same thing.” We’re in different roles in this conversation, but we are instantly relating to one another because we both feel super weird. It’s just, I don’t know, it’s kind of a raw, intimate kind of beautiful thing where you get to remind yourself that even as a practitioner, you’re not God. You’re not in charge and you don’t necessarily know better than the person who’s hired you. It’s a really important check for people. As soon as you get down to that level where you can actually just look at each other and recognize that you are really no different from one another, so much more powerful work ends up happening. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think so many of us, for a really good reason, have spent so much time trying to avoid feeling uncertain and awkward. We were punished for being awkward and weird and different in school. And we have all been made fun of or ridiculed for asking a question that someone else deemed to silly or for not knowing how to respond to something in the moment. There’s just such such magic in being able to practice that discomfort in a safe place. 

We’re all going to be uncomfortable, we’re all not really going to know how to do this thing. We’re all going to practice it and we’re going to figure it out at different paces, and in different ways. Those are the kinds of skills that also serve our most intimate relationships. If we can be a little awkward and a little uncertain and, “I don’t really know how to stay the thing but I’d sure like to try.” There’s some really good stuff that happens on the other side of that.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Oh, my God, yeah. Oh, yes. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So one of the other things that I would really love to talk to you about is, I’ve gotten a number of emails from people over the years around being in recovery and sex. And I know that you do a lot of work in this space. In fact, when I asked you what you’re geeking out about, the things you mentioned is you’re having a really good time working with a set of teenagers who are in residential treatment and that you’ve been noticing how different their interest in openness is compared to the adults that you usually work with. And I’d love to hear a little bit about, one, kind of these teenagers you’ve been working with and what you’re noticing between teens and adults. But also, I’d love to explore a little bit this space of being in recovery and sex, especially for people for whom the only ways in the past they’ve been able to really let go has been through substance use.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah. Oh, it’s so much. It’s so funny. I worked with teens in different residential centers over the last few years and there is just such a distinct contrast. I think anyone who works with teens and adults would probably say something similar where, for some people, teenagers are a total horror show and a terrifying concept. Because for all the reasons that are understandable, like you all get triggered and suddenly become our middle school selves being one-upped middle schooler because it does happen. Just like with adults too, like when you’re working in the population of people in some sort of program where they’re not there voluntarily, they didn’t sign up to work with you, they are stuck there with you as part of their daily schedule. They’re already annoyed. Not all of them, but there’s already the sense of like, “I’m not here because I necessarily want to,” and “Who the hell is this person?” “What is this white blonde lady going to fucking tell me about blah, blah, blah X, Y, and Z topic?” There’s already a lot of resistance that can be there. 

I find that kids and teens just haven’t been totally fucked by the world yet. They’ve totally been flipped by lots of stuff already like their parents or caregivers or social situations and trauma hundred percent. But they lack the calluses that we end up building in order to try to survive and keep going into adulthood. And I find that the lack of those calluses makes it easier to get in there and build some kind of rapport. Even if it’s based off of making self deprecating jokes about how old I am compared to them. I always make some kind of comment like, “You all keep me young” or I’ll reference a meme that I do know about but they probably know more about. So I’ll just sort of, “What is this? Is this a mem or meme?” And just give them little opportunities to teach the teacher and laugh it me or laugh with me, actually. And those are just ways where I remind them I am a human, also, and I am not there as some kind of authority figure who knows best. I’m sure as hell not going to tell them what to do or how to do it because that’s not how sex ed works.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: This most recent place that I in, it just gives me a little bit of hope for the future because I have yet to have had a group of teens who are jerks. I mean, maybe I had one but he was having a real hard time and just projecting all kinds of things onto me. But I still haven’t– The kids are more aware of social issues and verbiage and gender stuff. The topics that when I bring them up to adults, I get eyerolls or big question marks above their heads like, “What did you just say? Intersex what?” Either they’re aware already and they’re even trying to give me new language to use like, “Actually, I don’t know how I feel about the word queer.” I’m like, “That’s great. Tell me more. Why?” I’m not going to stop saying it necessarily. But, if it’s a trigger word, please tell me. The fact that they either notice that they can say things and have feelings about words and all of that or if they don’t know what I’m talking about, they just ask. They’re just like, “I don’t really get it.” And if they can’t say it out loud, we have an anonymous question box. So I just tell them, if you have a question or you’re not sure you want to ask it, write it down. Just don’t put your name on it. So there’s always an opportunity to respond to pretty much anything that comes to their minds. And they just, I don’t know, it kind of melts something and there’s such trust and respect, and we just had such a fun conversation this last session.

A couple of the kids were just like, “I want to have a group just about sexual orientation. I don’t even know all of the orientations out there and I feel like… I know how I feel but I don’t have a word for it and maybe there is one out there for me.” And I’m like, “Oh my god. Fuck, yes. Let’s fucking do it.” And so I just made a quick lesson according to what they asked for in a way to kind of reward them for saying what they wanted and getting specific about it. I am 100% going to cater to that and that’s something I want to reward so that they continue doing that into their late teens and adulthood. And we were just having such a good conversation. We had little handouts and people were curious. People were able to talk about the qualms they had about whether some letters in the acronym – the LGBTQIA acronym makes sense or feel right. We had people in the group with all different orientations, all different gender identities, all different positions in life. So it really had this beautiful, well rounded conversation. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: I knew it went well and it was fun because I had a good time. And I guess there were some adults in the background who was just shadowing some groups. She he came up to me at the end and she was like, “Oh, my God. I feel like I could ask you anything. And I can’t believe how much I learned and you made it so…” I mean, she was obviously complimenting me till the cows came home. And that was everything I ever want because I rarely don’t get positive feedback from these groups. But she said something along the lines of how impressed she was by the kids forthcoming this and what they were comfortable asking about and the knowledge they had. And then the way that I answered the questions just seemed really observable and digestible which of course, I absolutely attest to my time at San Francisco Sex Information. Also, I spent a lot of time just thrown into classrooms around Los Angeles Unified School District and just had to fucking figure it out. That also really helps simplify and really refine the way I answer questions from teens. But it was just nice to hear it from a completely unbiased rando who was thrown in and observed because it just kind of validated what I was pretty sure have had been going on. The kids very clearly, I don’t know, to me I can feel from them a sense of comfort and relaxation and neutrality, but in a non-numbed out way. In just a way like, “I’m okay right now.” That’s all I ever wanted when I was younger, probably even now. All I want to do is to be able to feel, “I’m fine. I’m okay. I’m actually fine.” So, that’s been really great.

Dawn Serra: I think one of the things that continues to confound me about adults being so terrified of talking to teens about sex, is how much more baggage adults are bringing to the story and how much we’re projecting our own shame and insecurity and fears, and how resilient and curious teens tend to be. They don’t have decades of stories about their identity and all of the things they’ve been questioning and they don’t have decades of experiences of rejection in the same way that adults do in changing times. And I love how what you’re sharing just really kind of highlights that when young people have a place that’s non-judgmental and there’s someone who’s going to be able to just answer their questions very matter-of-factly and even with some fun; that they are able to really show up in this incredibly vulnerable and awesome way that can be so hard for us grown ups. Because we’re so worried about what everyone else in the room is thinking and what it means for our partnership and what it means for all these things we’ve done in the past. I just want us to be trusting young people more.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: I know. We do not give young people enough credit. I think that is one little tool that I always like to recommend to people who are going to be working with kids is very quickly treat them like young adults, because you don’t know what shit they’ve been through and experienced. Do not treat them like they are somehow inferior versions of adults because they don’t know what life is like yet like, “Oh, they fucking do.” They process life differently because cognitively they have to. Don’t treat them like dumb idiots.They will smell it. They can smell it off of you and they will have a goddamn heyday, and they will rip you apart, and they will know when you start getting insecure, and then they will feed off of that. That’s where their power comes from, when you have to disempower them and dehumanize them as kids, they find another way to get that power back. And they can be real mean about it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So, I would love to spend a little bit of time just exploring the relationship between recovery, alcohol, drugs, sex. But I also want to tease that for our Patreon bonus conversation, I would really love to explore the dream work that you do. And can you tell people just a couple of minutes about some of your dream work and then we’ll do a deeper dive in Patreon, and then we’ll jump back over to recovery?

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah, sure. So, there’s lots of kinds of dream work out there. I am trained in something called Natural Dream Work. So it is very Freudian, it is not archetypal. It is very based on the dreamers – emotional experience within the dream, and then connecting those emotional responses to waking life. And using that as a way to sort of drill into some of the subconscious stuff that maybe we’re disconnected from or numbed out to when we’re awake, and using that as a way to recognize or identify patterns. Ultimately, with the purpose of, if you want to, dismantle those patterns, better understanding where they might have come from, how they impact us positively and negatively and how are they impacting the way that we connect to ourselves and other people. 

It just bypasses the conscious part of our minds that are always in control and moving around real fast and just cuts to the chase. And for me, that has been the most important and valuable thing because I don’t need to talk about my feelings I can talk about them all day, and I sometimes do. So talk therapy has never been a thing that really got me anywhere except into a little bit of debt for having to pay out of pocket and keep going consistently hoping something would change. I found that doing this kind of work showed me things about myself that I thought were done and over with or didn’t realize were there or we didn’t want to admit were there. And, the beauty of dreams – they’re just basically emotions in an experiential, visual form. They’re not there to judge you and they’re not there to show you deep, dark secrets about your inner psyche. I like to just think, your dreams just love you. My dream teacher says it all the time, “Your dreams love you. They think you’re fantastic. They just want you to feel better.” And the best way to help you feel better is to recognize what are you even feeling in the first place?

Dawn Serra: God, yes. Okay, well, I cannot wait to go into that a little bit more on the Patreon bonus. So before we wrap up here, I know this is a massive topic and that we’re barely barely barely going to scratch the surface. But, several people have written to me over the years, specifically around two different things: struggling because a lot of the events they want to go to often involve alcohol and feeling like there’s not really a place for them to go to be able to connect with other people. And the other thing, being people who in the past have really only been able to experience pleasurable sex after drinking enough alcohol that they feel inebriated or using different kinds of narcotics and drugs. For people who are in recovery and that might not be an option anymore, it can start to feel like, can I ever experienced pleasure again? So, I’d love to hear a lot a little bit about the ways that you work with people who are in recovery, who were wanting to know their body and to know pleasure, but maybe it’s feeling a little bit complicated because of the situation they’re in.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah. The number one thing I say, I immediately validate the situation that they’re in that like we have every right and reason to feel nervous and freaked out. I sometimes offer a little bit of perspective about what’s going on brain wise. There’s a reason why you have a threat response to this idea of sex without substance use. And so, it’s normal. Let’s normalize it. But also the fears you have, they might be valid, but they’re not necessarily based in any type of truth or facts because you don’t really know what it’s like yet. You’re just afraid of what it might be. And depending on what kind of relationship the person had in sex, and how long they were using and whether or not– basically how much over sex have they even had in their lifetime. I adjust the way I respond accordingly. 

I think the number one thing I like to remind people about is sex, while using substances, like people want to do it like they do it. I am in no way in a position of, “That’s bad. Don’t do it.” I’m a harm reduction educator, first and foremost. But I like to remind people that the pleasure that people experience while their brains are heightened chemically, is going to be different from pleasure your experience when you’re sober, because it’s like comparing apples to a desk chair. They’re not the same. And if you expect them to be the same, then you’re already setting yourself up and you don’t need to go there. Don’t make it harder for yourself than it already is. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: So, check yourself in what you think you know about sober sex and compare that to what you actually know about sober sex. For a lot of people what they actually know about sober sex is really limited and it’s really just based off of what their sponsor said if they were if they’re in a 12 step program or it’s what their friends at rehab said. Or maybe they had one or two really embarrassing experiences, maybe with a rehab romance or with an ex they got back together with once they got sober and it went terribly. And that was enough to prove to their brain, “See, it’ll never work.” “See, it’s bad.” “See, I got rejected.” See, this is what happens every time.” All of that – all the stories that we tell ourselves to justify fear. And if I’m able to get down to, what was your relationship to substance in the first place? Why did you use that substances before having sex? What did it offer you? What do you think it offered you? And then tell me what it actually did. So we’re able to sort of delineate between how you think it benefited you and what actually happened. And then try to really drill down to why was this a coping mechanism in the first place? What are you coping with? 

Usually at some level of dealing or not dealing with trauma related to sexual either behaviors, or with feeling connected to another person, even emotionally, or its general anxiety and fear, or insecurity about something with themselves. The easiest, most affordable and fastest thing they could access to try to “deal with” those feelings was booze or some kind of drug. And so, of course, they used. Why wouldn’t they have? But look where it got them. It clearly didn’t actually make things better at all. So, now that that coping mechanism is no longer an option or it can’t be because of X, Y, Z consequence, what could we do instead? And then start exploring alternatives that might not have the desired outcomes or at least their expected outcomes, but it’s going to lead them toward having the kind of experiences and outcomes that feel healthy and consensual and soft and enjoyable. All the things that they were probably convinced were never possible because of the pain they had experienced in the past. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. And so much of this, for me, comes back to the ways we’ve had to survive were wise for so many reasons. The ways we survived the trauma or the pain, or we got through these feelings of loss and grief, or we escaped the harm – whatever it was. And sometimes, those things that saved us become the very things that then hold us back or hurt us.

Part of doing trauma work is feeling like you don’t know which way is up sometimes. You don’t know this body. You don’t know it’s responses. It’s not doing the things you thought that it should or that it used to, and there’s so much grief work inside of that. But also so much opportunity for curiosity. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Yeah. It likens a lot of things to– I use analogies, probably way too much. But I think of this kind of work as like remodeling a house. Your house worked for a while and then the way that you changed or your family changed or life change – the house just needs to be adjusted accordingly. And sometimes, that means putting on a helmet and a mask, and demolishing the whole damn thing; and being accepting of the fact that it’s going to make a huge fucking mess. It’s going to smell, you’re going to cough. It’s going to feel like it’s completely unlivable. It might be unlivable for a little while. You’re going to notice during the demolishing process that, “Oh, shit. There’s some asbestos here” or “Oh, God. The wiring – who did wiring like this? I thought this was so much more secure than it was.” 

Making space for all of that to just be true without putting meaning on it and without also letting it stop you. Just keep on going because the more you finish the demo process, then you start sweeping on stuff up. You hire things. You hire help to help you haul it away and find a new place for it. You get people to help you fix the mess and make the mess more manageable. And then you have this beautiful bare bones place where you get to decide the curtains and the flooring, and how the plumbing is going to look. And whether or not you’re going to have a garbage disposal. If you get to decide now for yourself instead of either deciding because you didn’t know there were any other options or because someone else decided for you. Yes, on the one hand, sure – overwhelming. It’s a huge process. It could take years. Who knows if it’ll ever be done? Yes, totally true. But also, it means you’re getting what you want instead of what someone else thinks you should have. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: So, the trade off is just incredibly empowering and you are in charge, and you get to decide who helps you and in what ways. It’s just a healthier way to do it and then all sudden, one day, you’re going to look around and you’re like, “Oh, my fucking god. I love this bathroom. Look at my yard look at all the flowers that are suddenly blooming. Oh, my God.” It really does hit you often like that. One day it will feel like all of a sudden, it all changed. Because it’s so incremental that you can’t really track it and notice it day to day. That’s just not how healing works. I would be nice if it was.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I know. Not so lucky. And I think, too, so often what people are afraid of whether it’s because you’re sober and so he don’t drink anymore, or whatever your case is. Or maybe you’re just out of eating disorder recovery, which is a lot of the people that I work with, or any number of other things – There’s often this fear of, one, being too much and two, being rejected. You and I both know, it doesn’t necessarily make it easy, but when we can be really honest about where we are and then people can meet us there, those are the people – those are our people. Those are the people we want to be sharing our bodies with, sharing our stories with, sharing our lives with. 

And if someone can’t handle whatever our truth is, that’s probably not a person we should be sharing ourselves with intimately. And being able to just hold that – Yes, you might be too much for some people. There might be some people for whom sober events really aren’t their cup of tea and that’s okay. But there’s probably a lot of people you can find who would want to be at those things with you and let’s take a little bit of time to find those folks.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Absolutely. I think that definitely is a thing that freaks people out about going on any type of healing journey because it can make a lot of other people uncomfortable, ultimately, because it forces them to confront some of their stuff. And if they’re not ready for it, then they’re going to recoil. Sometimes they’ll make it, they’ll present it in a way where it’s because of you – “You are too much for me” or “You are making you uncomfortable” Or, “you, you you.” And it’s never easy to be on the receiving end of that. Totally intellectually, that’s actually a reflection of them. They’d be a shitty partner anyway and all of that is true. 

We just also have to make space for, “All right, am I taking this personally? Am I allowing this to send me back into the story about why I’m unlovable or ugly or too fat or too thin or blah, blah blah?” All those things. And if so, those are the moments where, “All right, what coping mechanism do I know need right now to be able to get out of this fucking spiral?” Because I hate it here. I don’t like it here and my brain likes it because it’s familiar. But I don’t want to do the thing I always do. I think one of the number one things is having someone, even one person, whether it’s a practitioner or a coach or friend or a family member – just on call where you can really just text and say, “I’m doing the thing again.” And having someone respond, “I understand. What do you need right now?” Or even already setting the parameters where there’s a set response where if I was that person and I received a message from someone saying, “I’m really sad right now.” I know what this person needs to hear immediately, “Tell me about it. I’m fucking sad too. Call me.” Whatever it needs to be and that is so helpful. It helps sort of reduce the risk of really diving too far deep into that hole that we sometimes go in and it helps us, then, recover from some of that rejection a little bit faster. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Also, just expect rejection. Rejection and disappointment are just part of the deal. Humans do it to each other all the time, not because we’re assholes but because we’re human beings. A lot of the times we we disappoint or hurt someone thinking we’re doing a great thing and we don’t actually realize that we’re doing something that’s harming someone at all. Just remembering, being triggered, being disappointed, being rejected – expect it, don’t avoid it. It’s not, If it happens” but “When it happens” and have one or two response tools in your pocket to use when it happens so that it doesn’t take over. Even doing that once, your brain gets to see that as possible so you start rewiring that rout, belief system. And then also… I don’t know. Even just speaking from experience, it just feels like, “Oh, my God. Look at me, I’m a fucking superhero. Look at what I just did.” I can totally invalidate it on the one hand but also like holy shit, I didn’t do that thing that I usually do. I was convinced I couldn’t change but this proves that I can so what does that mean about my stories about myself?

Dawn Serra: That shit is good shit to get to.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Right? 

Dawn Serra: Yes. Okay, well, I could keep talking to you literally for hours. But I want to respect your time and everyone else’s time. We’re going to hop over and talk about dream work for the Patreon supporters. But before we do that, can you let people know how they can find you online, stay in touch, learn more about your EDSE certification program?

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Oh yeah, sure. You can learn about certification and some of the sex at work at everyonedeservessex.com. My private practice with coaching and dream work is at annehoddershipp.com and that’s HODDERSHIPP. You can find me on – I mean, Instagram is the most fun. There’s lots of cat photos there @theannehodder and otherwise, any of those contact forms on the website goes right to my inbox and I always reply personally.

Dawn Serra: That is definitely one thing you and I have in common is, there is not enough cat stuff anymore.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Nope.

Dawn Serra: Nope. More cats

Anne Hodder-Shipp: My coping mechanism is, I’m not even kidding you, is cat videos, cat photos. Find a goddamn cat and pet that damn cat. That’s really – I’m really lucky that that’s the thing that’s so quickly consumed me.

Dawn Serra: Well, that’s because cats are magic. 

Anne Hodder-Shipp: They really are. I read about that this morning.

really are. Morning

Dawn Serra: Everyone, I hope you click through, follow along, sign up for one of these future certification programs with EDSE. And if you support the show on Patreon, pop over to patreon.com/SGRpodcast to hear more. And thank you so much for being here with us, Anne. I appreciate it.

Anne Hodder-Shipp: Oh, thanks so much for having me. 

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses. 

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?