Sex Gets Real 271: Staying or going when you love two people, hating your vulva, & love across borders

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It’s you and me this week because I have so many amazing questions from you that I wanted to answer a few before next week’s epic episode with Tristan Taormino.

So what’s on tap for this week?

Teacup Half Full wrote in because she is engaged to an amazing man named George. He makes her so happy. But she also has an ex from the past who has come back into her life and he has declared that he wants to leave his fiancé to be with her. She loves them both. What can she do?

Katie weighed in with her thoughts:

Part of what I think Teacup Half Full needs to evaluate is her relationship values, how she wants to be in relationship, and then evaluate her relationship with these two men to see what she notices about what feels right. The secret keeping from both her fiancé George and the ex’s fiancé needs to be addressed.

Next, Ashamed AF Amy is struggling because Amy feels deeply ashamed of her genitals. She’s been thinking about surgery because she feels broken and ugly. In fact, the first person she slept with shamed her and refused to go down on her.

Hawthorn and Katie shared their thoughts. Among the things they offered, they also shared the following resources for learning more about the vast and extraordinary variation in how vulva look.

Check out:

The Labia Library

The Vulva Gallery

Laura Dodsworth’s 100 Vagina’s project

Joani Blank’s book Femalia

I want for more of us, all of us regardless of gender, to check out these resources. To see the huge variety in how vulvas shape themselves – none is wrong or ugly, they’re simply different and unique. We don’t get a chance to see much genitalia outside of porn, and that can leave us feeling like there’s something wrong.

Am Me wrote in because their friend is sexually attracted to fat bodies. How can they find resources around that?

Let’s normalize finding fat bodies hot! Because fat bodies can be SOOOO sexy – all those soft places, sensitive places, and yummy places to get lost in.

Let’s also talk about the difference between finding something sexy versus objectifying or fetishizing someone.

Finally, Violeta is struggling because she is from Mexico and the person she is falling for is in the U.S. Is there any hope for love across this border, especially considering the current political climate? What can she do? Everything feels so sad.

This is the reality of racism, xenophobia, and all of the bullshit propaganda U.S. citizens have been fed forever about fearing those from Mexico, Central, and South America. The violence is having a real impact on so many people, not just those crossing the border.

Follow Dawn on Instagram.

About Host Dawn Serra:

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Hey, you! Welcome to this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. I am your host, Dawn, and this week it’s going to be you, me, and some really awesome questions. I also have HUGE news. If you are in the Vancouver area, I am now going to be taking in-person clients! I will be working out of Allura Sex Therapy Centre on Fridays in downtown Vancouver. So if you’ve been thinking about maybe working with me and around getting some support around body trust, body shame, relationship, sex, pleasure, or desire, head to dawnserra.com and shoot me a note. Because I have a feeling my Fridays are going to fill up pretty fast, and I’d love to support you especially as a listener of the show. So, I’m very excited!

Dawn Serra: I’m also really excited about next week because not only is it my birthday weekend, #Leosforthewin, but Tristan Taormino and I had this TWO HOUR LONG conversation this week for the podcast. Which means next week, you’re getting an epic 90 minute episode of our conversation about so many things. And Patrons, if you support the show at $3 and above, you’re also going to get a yummy bonus discussion where Tristan and I are talking about triangulation and polyamorous relationships for another 20 minutes. Which is really great so I’m super excited for that.

The July cohort of my Power in Pleasure online course is under way and, holy smokes, they are blowing my socks off. If you missed the enrollment deadline for July but you want to join in this beautiful exploration of pleasure, hunger, desire, the next cohort will be starting October 14th. And you can actually enroll now, I already switched everything over at dawnserra.com/pleasurecourse. There are some big questions in this week’s episode, so let’s not wait one more minute and let’s jump in.

Dawn Serra: This first email comes from Teacup Half Full who wrote in with a subject line: One is the Sun, One is the Moon. The email says, 

“Hey, Dawn. I want to start off by saying your podcast has been so enlightening for me, and I love listening. My story is a long one, so I’ll try to get to the point. I’m engaged to an absolutely incredible man. Let’s call him George. He’s fun, outgoing, and we have so many common interests. I’m a Virgo, so he draws out the hidden fun side of me and always has me laughing. He makes me so, so happy. In my younger years, I dated a man that changed how I felt about love. Let’s call him Fitzwilliam. There was just something so different about him. He was calm security to me, and we had an intense but short love story. We fit together like two puzzle pieces; everything from interests, morals, work ethic, to how we tackled problems was the same. He was my biggest cheerleader, and made me feel like together we could accomplish anything. The sex was off the charts. 

Unfortunately our careers took us to different places, and he encouraged me to follow my dreams even if he couldn’t come with me, so we ended things. I have always been the type to cut contact with exes, but over the next few years, one of us would reach out to the other, and that intense feeling was always there. Eventually, our lives collided again, and we decided to hang out. Whatever there was between us was stronger than ever, but he had just started seeing this other woman, and found out shortly after that she was pregnant. I was devastated, so congratulated him and then cut off all contact with him. Time went on, and I told myself I needed to get back into the dating world. That’s when I met my amazing fiance. George became one of my closest friends. Just after I started dating George, Fitzwilliam reached out to me. We remained in contact, and George knew, but I told him we were strictly friends and was honest when he asked if I was talking to him or not.”

Dawn Serra: “Well, recently, Fitzwilliam has asked to see me. We have hung out a few times, and the connection is stronger than ever. He has admitted that I am the one for him, and he has thought about leaving his fiance. I have also thought the same thing, but I’m afraid that I might be making a mistake. Sorry for the long confession, but thank you for reading! – Teacup Half Full”

First off, thanks for trusting me with this, Teacup. I know that this is quite a pickle to be in and it sounds really tough. But before I share my thoughts, I actually posed this question to the show patrons who support at $5 per month to weigh in on this. Katie, one of the $5 patrons, had some thoughts. Here’s what Katie had to say:

“Oh goodness… Well, firstly, acknowledge that loving more than one person is “normal,” and entirely acceptable and it can feel difficult to feel like you need to choose. That uncertainty sounds hard. Stop and sit with whatever feelings are there in this. How wonderful that you have multiple people in your life who you could have a loving, meaningful sexual relationship with! How special and cool and certainly not everyone’s experience! Thirdly, there is a world that is not binary that you could actually not have to “make a choice.” You could choose to (insert any label/language you want: polyamorous, open, relationship anarchist, etc.).” 

Dawn Serra: Point being, if you want to have multiple ethical, consensual relationships with people, you can! It is a significant amount of energy/time for many people that choose this just because relationships take time and energy, but an option that’s useful to remember. And finally, as unsatisfying of a response as this is, I would suggest that, again, you think beyond the binary. There is not “one right answer” and everything else is wrong. If you do want to be monogamously partnered and married with one of these dudes, great! Pick one. He will not be “perfect” because no one is, and then you two wonderful and entirely fallible people make the best of your life. 

There would be good things and crummy things about whoever you choose and it is not permanent even though it is big to get married. You do your best to make a mutual decision that this is the relationship that you want to be in and then live that life as best as you can. I think that this can sound incredibly sterile and pragmatic, but it just feels like what is real to me. Also, for what it is worth, what’s the rush to get married? If you are uncertain, I would hold off on that. Marriage as an institution is not going anywhere soon, so take a beat.”

Dawn Serra: That was from Katie. Thank you so much, Katie. If you’re listening and you want to be able to share your thoughts and stories, you can go to patreon.com/SGRpodcast and support the show at $5 per month and above. It really means a lot to me. For those of you that do it, I really appreciate it so much and then you can try your hand at offering some input on listener questions.

I love what Katie said about, “Nobody’s going to be perfect.” Dan Savage likes to talk about how when we are in relationship with someone, we choose to round up. There’s no perfect “the one.” But they might be a point 8.3 or a point 7.2 or a point 9, and we round up because we know that they’re doing the same for us. We’re not perfect. For this person that we’re entering a relationship with, we might be a point 7.9 or a point 8.3 or whatever it is, and they’re generously rounding up. So, I really appreciate that Katie’s naming there’s no perfect fit.

Dawn Serra: I also think that it’s very important, as Katie said, “There is no right answer.” There’s no sure path. There’s no getting it just right. Even if George and Fitzwilliam were down for some version of non-monogamy, and maybe they are, there’s no guarantee that it would work out. There’s no guarantee that they’d like each other. There’s no guarantee that it would be what you would imagine it to be.

One of the things I’ve learned along the way is that often our story about a person is more powerful, persuasive, and romantic than the person actually is. Especially across time and distance. Time and distance allows us to turn people into who we want them to be. Our imaginations, our longings, and our desires fill in the gaps until we feel like we know this person to be this magical, amazing human being. And they might be magical and amazing, but the version that’s in our head is not the more nuanced, complicated, fallible version that they are in life.

Dawn Serra: What I think is really clear is that you know two men who both feel special to you in different ways. If you’re seriously considering leaving George to be with Fitzwilliam, I think that’s something George deserves to know. Many of us are capable of falling in love with multiple people, developing crushes on multiple people, fantasizing about multiple people even if we are monogamous. Because no one person could possibly be our everything. It’s not realistic and, in fact, it’s cruel to expect one person to meet all our needs. We’re just too complex for that.

That said, we also have a responsibility to the people in our lives to abide by the agreements that we have or to negotiate new agreements when we realize the existing agreements no longer feel like a good fit. If you and George have a monogamous relationship and your engagement indicates an agreement to commit to each other and this relationship, you need to decide if that is still something you want. 

Dawn Serra: I am concerned that Fitzwilliam seems to be betraying his agreements with his fiance. In fact, what I’m wondering is this the woman who was pregnant? If so, then there’s a child involved and I think that’s a very important piece of this puzzle that should carry a lot of weight. If it is not the woman he got pregnant, then I’m also kind of concerned about his treatment of the women that he’s with, because that would show a pattern that he enters into a serious relationship situations and then reaches out to you when he’s really not available to meet you in the ways he is indicating he wants to be with you. 

I’m wondering, does his fiancé know about you? Does she know he’s been asking to see you? That you’ve been meeting up? Does she know about your history? If he’s willing to propose to someone while longing for you, if he’s willing to get engaged to someone and then meets with you and admits he wants to leave her to be with you, I wonder, can you trust that he’s not going to then continue that pattern and do the same to you once you’re in relationship? I don’t know. I don’t know this person but you know. But I think asking these questions and being able to really honestly be with the answer without romanticizing it to fit your feelings is a really important thing to do.

Dawn Serra: It definitely seems like there are some secrets that are happening and that both George and Fitzwilliam’s fiance are in the dark about some of what’s unfolding. And I don’t think that that’s fair to George or to Fitzwilliam’s fiance, that you’re both keeping them in the dark while trying to figure out what to do together. For me, personally, that feels out of alignment with my values and how I want to do with relationship with people I care about. You need to ask yourself about your values and whether you’re in alignment with them right now.

It’s funny because as I was thinking about this, it really reminded me of the two shows, The Bachelor and The Bachelorette. I’ve watched probably 15 seasons of those shows over the years. Nothing recently but I definitely was watching them very religiously for a while and I was even in some brackets with friends and had teams. When you’re bored in corporate life, you do all kinds of things. Something that’s always fascinated me about both of these shows is that the ending. When it gets down to those final two or three people, there’s almost always one person who is really grounded, that has a good sense of themselves, the lead has loads in common with them, emotionally they are a terrific match. And there’s something really solid about the relationship they’re growing. But the lead almost never chooses that person. 

Dawn Serra: Instead, the lead almost always chooses instead the person with whom they have this really intense, fiery chemistry with. It’s interesting because, if you were to ask the lead what they wanted in a partner that would make for a healthy, loving connection based on their values and needs, almost always, before the new relationship energy kicks in, the lead would describe, to a T, the person who is emotionally a terrific match. But as soon as that NRE takes over, they make a choice based on this flood of cocaine-like chemicals. And as we’ve seen historically in the show, almost all of those relationship fizzles quickly. So few of the couples stay together, and I think – Yes, it’s partially scripted, it’s reality TV. But I also think it’s because people fall in love with that flood of chemicals and the “chemistry” even when there’s something about the person that maybe they know isn’t likely to be a good long term fit or they’re just not able to think clearly at all.

I think a really great example of this is Jason Mesnick, who was super famous because of what happened on his season. He was a Bachelor 10 years ago. He had this beautiful, interesting, deep, meaningful connection with Molly, but he didn’t choose Molly. He chose Melissa because with Melissa, the intoxication of the chemistry, of being together, the sexula energy overrode everything else. But after the show ended, Jason started realizing that Melissa was not going to be a good long-term match, especially because he was a dad. So he actually ended up leaving Melissa and begging Molly to give him another chance. Now he and Molly have been together for over a decade. They’ve got multiple kids.

Dawn Serra: We should never be basing our real lives on TV relationships especially a show like The Bachelor or The Bachelorette. But I wanted to share that because sometimes we let ourselves fall into situations that feel really exciting and intense and overwhelming and it’s less about the person and more about chasing those really, really, yummy feel good chemicals and also the story that we’ve been telling ourselves. Sometimes we chase that story because we’ve turned it into a fairytale.

Another reason that we often chase those chemicals that come with new relationship energy is maybe we’re not feeling a sense of aliveness or creativity or connection to our lives. Maybe we’re numbing out and feeling empty. So NRE feels like this super burst of aliveness and excitement. There’s a reason people tend to do really stupid things when they first all in love, and it’s because of NRE.

Dawn Serra: I think part of the work we all have to do as we think about healthy, interdependent relationships and creating connections that lift us all up instead of breaking us down and creating trauma, is really learning how to navigate all those fun yummy brain chemicals without losing track of the things that are important to us and our values. Especially over the long term. Not everyone wants a long-term committed relationship, which is super OK. 

We all get to decide how we want to show up in our lives and how we want to do relationship. But if you, Teacup, are interested in choosing one romantic, sexual partner that you could build a life, part of that work is to develop the skills of feeling crushes, feeling moved by yummy fantasies. Honoring those delicious connections that we drift in and out of over the course of our lives with varying degrees without getting swept away by them. 

Dawn Serra: No matter what you choose, Teacup, I think you have to really sit with yourself and ask, “Why am I engaged to George? What is it about this relationship that made me say yes? Were my reasons based in something that felt really grounded and true or was it something else?” What values do you hold, Teacup, around relationships? If the situation was reversed and George was in this pickle without you knowing about it, how would you feel? Would you be able to trust him after learning he was thinking about breaking the engagement to be with this other person who is always engaged? Would you want to be engaged to him if he was at the cusp of leaving because this other person has come back to his life?

Maybe following that feels important. Maybe you’d want them for him and hopefully he can want that for you if that’s the direction you decide to go in. But I think what’s underneath all of that is being in a relationship for you right now. And what about Fitzwilliam? If he’s not being honest with his fiance, what kind of values does he hold in partnered relationships? What evidence do you have of what it will be like with Fitzwilliam after the intensity shifts from this intense love affair/forbidden fruit/long arch to the story to dirty undies on the floor and going to the bathroom with the door open and arguing about who’s going to do the dishes this week. 

Dawn Serra: I can’t answer these questions for you. There is some part of you that knows. And I think the work is in slowly untangling all of these intense feelings and finding your way towards your inner truth. I think some conversations need to be had and I think some support from friends and/or a therapist might be in order. People who can really help you to evaluate your desires for how you want to be in relationship, what you might need to grieve in order to be in that kind of relationship, the kinds of values that you want to really let guide you and the ways that you interact with these people you care about.

No matter what you choose, someone’s going to be hurt. No matter what you choose, you will have to live with what comes next. That might be heartbreak, that might be excitement, it could be any number of things. We don’t know what comes next. But you, and only you, know in your heart of hearts when you really think about how you want to be in life, what the answer is.

Dawn Serra: My advice is to slow down. Take a break from making any big decisions, and really reflect on your values, your patterns, your desires, your dreams for the future, what you haven’t been admitting to yourself, what you secretly want. And to maybe even do this with the support of someone you really trust so that they can call you on your bullshit. Because often, especially when those brain chemicals and those NRE start flooding us, we start telling ourselves all kinds of stories and justifying all kinds of behavior that later we feel really bad about. It’s important to have people in our lives who can say, “I don’t think you’re thinking this through. I know you well and this isn’t how, I think, you want to be doing things.” Or, “I’ve never seen you so lit up and alive. You’ve been wanting this a long time. Maybe you need permission.”

So I leave you with lots of questions and knowing that there’s no perfect answer. There’s no right answer. There’s just coming back to yourself and really trying to feel into the truth of who you want to be, how you want to be, and how you want to be in relationship, and then going from there. Best of luck to you, Teacup, and thank you so much for writing in.

Dawn Serra: This next question comes from Ashamed As Fuck Amy. Amy writes, 

“Dear, Dawn. First, like everyone else, I love your show and i feel like finding you has saved me in so many ways. But there’s one thing I just can’t seem to get over and I’m hoping maybe you or some of your listeners can help. I am so, so ashamed of my genitals. I think they’re weird and ugly and I don’t know if the smell is how it’s supposed to smell. I’ve only had one boyfriend. We were each other’s firsts and kind of late bloomers, I guess you could say. We were in our late teens when we started dating and it took me months to let him see me naked. And then when he did he said my lips looked weird and wouldn’t go down on me. It was terrible because it just made me feel like everything I’d been scared of might be true, you know? I read up on some surgeries, but I also read that you can lose sensation and I don’t think I want anything that drastic. I just don’t want to feel so ashamed. Can you help me? I feel broken and deformed. I know I shouldn’t say that, but I do and I feel like I can’t tell anyone. Ashamed AF Amy”

Dawn Serra: Two patrons generously shared their thoughts to Amy’s email so I’ll read their comments before weighing in. Hawthorn wrote: 

“Vulvas are lovely regardless of how they present. The Labia Library has a small gallery and every single vulva there is gorgeous! Confident, aroused vulva owners seem to make a lot of people uncomfortable.”

I will have a link. There’s more links coming but you can check out that link at sexgetsreal.com/ep271/ for episode 271. So you can get a link to the labia library by going to sexgetsreal.com/ep271/ Katie also wrote: 

“Amy, Firstly, sending you so, so much loving energy. It is so hard to feel unwanted or undesirable or that “something is wrong with you.” Your feelings, the distress around both your vulva and also the inconsiderate response of your previous partner, get to exist and I am glad that you wrote in, if for nothing else, to have those feelings heard and validated. Secondly, your poor vulva. It sounds like from your email that 100% of the messages that it has heard both from you and from this previous partner were shaming and unkind. Third, don’t judge your feelings around feeling ashamed! That is the “second arrow” as psychologist Tara Brach and lots of other Eastern philosophies and technical traditions teaches us.”

Dawn Serra: “In the fucked up “faux empowerment wellness culture,” I think that an additional wound can come from “You need to look a certain way, but if you don’t, you should be doing whatever you can to get it to look like that certain way. But in the meantime, love your body.” And if you don’t “love your body,” then there is also something wrong with you. So we have the feeling that something is wrong with us then, the second arrow is that we judge the feeling. Fourth, if it would make you feel better to get a medical check to ensure that you are healthy, go do that. I would suggest going to a provider that you have some comfort with and if you don’t know anyone, ask your friends. In short, as long as you are healthy, there is no way that your vulva is “supposed” to look or smell. A provider can let you know if you have an actual medical condition that could be causing physical discomfort. For example a yeast infection.

Fifth, statistically speaking, barring any medical condition, your vulva is absolutely normal. There are extreme amounts of variability in vulvas and none are “wrong” or “better” than others. However, it is a very “useful” tool of the patriarchy to make you think that there is something wrong with your body. It is useful because it keeps you from experiencing the pleasure that can exist in your own body as it interacts with the world. Remember, if we keep women and femme folks “busy” telling them that they will never be enough, then they can’t revolt! Also, this partner was a bummer and there will be others, if you choose, who will be happy to go down on you.” 

Dawn Serra: “My advice, check out these links,” and then there are some links, “start to notice when thoughts come into your mind that there is something “wrong” with your vulva and allow them to move along. You don’t need to believe them. Remember, it is very rare that we see other naked vulvas around. If you have access to a spa – I used to live in Seattle and there was an awesome Korean spa that I went to and it was just so freeing to see stretch marks, tattoos, scars, tummies, non-model, non-retouched femme folks. Try to go to one of those to just soak in the diversity of bodies that exist in the world! And in that same vein, if you feel comfortable, talk about this with friends. Additional suffering can come from thinking you are alone in these thoughts and you are not alone. 

Again, given that these messages are systemic, you come by these feelings “honestly.” They are not your fault. They are also not true. So getting your feelings out into the open can be really connecting and supportive. All the best and big, big loving energy again to you, Amy. Thanks for sharing this. See these awesome resources.” And then Katie provided The Labia Library, The Vulva Gallery which is my personal favorite, and a BBC article about Laura Dodsworth’s photo project: 100 Vaginas. All of those links are at sexgetsreal.com/ep271/ if you want to check them out. A huge thanks to Hawthorn and Katie for their input.

Dawn Serra: If there’s one thing, Amy, that I can say for certain which, if you listen to the show, you know it’s very rare that I make any kind of absolute kind of definitive statements because there’s just too much variety in all the things. But I can say for certain that you, Amy, are not alone in feeling ashamed of your genitals. Like Katie said, there’s a symptom of living in our culture right now where we’re taught to feel ashamed of our bodies, especially our genitals if we have a vulva. So I wonder what you would say, Amy, to someone who expressed the same things you’re sharing. If a dear friend came to you, ashamed and closed down, and small and sad, and said, “I’m so ashamed of my genitals to the point that I’m thinking of having them surgically changed.” What would you say to that beloved friend? 

What would you say if you were in a room with 100 young people and all of them were there because they felt ashamed of their vulvas? What about a few million? If it’s more common for people to be ashamed of their vulvas than not, what might that tell us about the ways we view our own genitals? I think one of the most extraordinary resources I’ve ever come across is one that I’ve shared on the show in the past and Katie’ mentioned which is The Vulva Gallery which you can see on Instagram. HOLY SMOKES. The variety in labia shapes, colors, textures, sizes, and poofiness – All the things is so astounding and it’s so extraordinary to just see thousands of them.

Dawn Serra: There’s also this great book by Joani Blank, the title is gendered and not the best, called “Femalia.” But it’s photography inside of it is full of colored photos of vulva and labia. And it’s amazing to see just how incredibly varied and different they all are. I think there are two invitations for you based on what you wrote. The first is deciding if you want to take the time to really explore all the ways vulva and labia can look. Because we’re just not exposed to really any, other than what we see in porn. From The Vulva Gallery and The Labia Library to queer porn to photography books and beyond, I wonder what might change if you started flooding yourself with vulva that looked similar to yours, and shockingly different from your own, and everything in between. 

I think the other invitation is around healing the wound that was left by that guy who threw his own ineptitude and inexperience that caused you harm. How did you end up paying the price for his lack of knowledge and know-how? It sucks and it’s not fair. I wish that your first had been with someone who understood that vulva and labia are just so beautifully varied and extraordinarily different. Someone who would have savored and honored and treated your genitals with the reverence they deserve. And your genitals do deserve reverence. I think that’s something else that all of us can do but especially those of us who have a complicated relationship with our vulva. What might happen if you started offering your labia a little gratitude ritual each day? 

Dawn Serra: At first, it might feel forced or you might have to focus on these really miniscule, seemingly unrelated things. But having done this with my body as a whole – I can tell you it starts to shift over time and it starts to actually look different. Your eyes and what you see change. What might happen if you started thanking your vulva for the sensations that it allows you to feel? What if you started thanking the sensitive flesh for the ways that it engorges when you’re really aroused? What would happen if you laid your hands gently on your genitals with tenderness and curiosity, and allowed yourself to feel them as if you had no idea what genitals could look like and approached them like the marvel that they are?

It might be challenging to do and that might not be the place to start. The place to start might be in spending lots of time looking through The Labia Library and The Vulva Gallery, and just really reinforcing new messages about how genitals can look. But it is an invitation and I hope you’ll hold as you explore some of the resources because I promise you that no matter what, your vulva and your labia are deserving of love, and ritual, and care, and reverence because they bring you so much pleasure. And you’re right, surgery can alter. Not only sensation but can increase the amount of pain that you have, and can change more than you think that it can. 

Dawn Serra: The last thing I want to address is your concern about the smell. This is something else that so many people, especially younger people, get really wrong. Vulva smell like vulva. They don’t smell like potpourri or mint. They’re not supposed to be scent-less and sterile. These are juicy, fleshy, yummy parts of our body that are meant to be musky and earthy and pungent and alive with this richness that’s unlike anything else in the world.

Our vulva smell different right out of the shower or the bath versus after a workout or a hot day versus after being in undies and sitting at a desk all day versus after sex. They smell different depending on where we are in our cycle, how close we are to menstruating if our bodies do that. As Katie said, if you’re truly concerned, you can get a wellness check at a Planned Parenthood or with a doctor that you trust to make sure everything is balanced and healthy. But if you ever encounter another partner who makes a comment about your vulva, who won’t go down on you because of how it looks or who expects your vulva to be scent free or to smell like a car freshener, run away and fast. That human being, in no way, deserves access to your body unless that’s something you’ve negotiated ahead of time.

Dawn Serra: I also want to say, if you’d like some support around this because you don’t have to move through these feelings alone, please feel free to reach out to me. I’d be happy to work with you in my coaching practice and to support you as you, not only explore all the questions, but to grieve some of the stories that you’ve internalized and to find new ways of being with your body. You are allowed to feel what you feel.

You’re also allowed to question why you feel that way and where the stories came from. Because I promise you, you were born adoring your genitals. Literally. Babies love their genitals. Why? Because they feel really good when you touch them. So you were born adoring this vulva of yours and something along the way disrupted that love. It is not your fault that that happened but it is yours to choose what comes next. I want to say, thank you so much, Amy, because you are not alone and I can tell you that there’s thousands of people listening right now who could’ve written that email themselves. What I hope is that knowing you are one of millions upon millions of people who have been taught to be ashamed of their vulva incites some rage in you. It incites rage in me because it is not right that we should be spending so much time being so afraid of these incredible bodies that we have because they don’t conform to some ridiculous narrow standard. So again, this is not your fault. This didn’t come from you. You did not do anything wrong. Other people are benefiting from your pain and suffering because it keeps you small.

Dawn Serra: So if there’s a shred of “FUCK THAT” inside of you, nurture it. Breathe life into it and work with someone, work with yourself to find some of that power that gives you a chance to really honor all the incredible things that your genitals are capable of. Because no matter what they look like, they’re capable of some pretty awesome stuff. 

Everyone who wants those links that were mentioned, head to sexgetsreal.com/ep271/ for Episode 271. And good luck, Amy. Thank you so much for trusting me with this. You’re not alone. If anyone listening has something that they want to share with Amy, maybe about their own bodies and finding a new appreciation or coming to peace with your genitals, feel free to write into the show. I’d be happy to share it at a future episode to Amy, and email is info@sexgetsreal.com

Dawn Serra: This next note comes from Am Me with a subject line of “Fat!” It reads: 

“Hello! I have a friend who tends to be sexually interested in fat bodies. She carries a lot of shame around this, and worries that she is objectifying people. Do you have any helpful resources? Also, please let me know if there is any language I’ve used that might be offensive. I want to learn how to communicate about these things in better ways. Thank you!”

Well, Am Me, short and to the point! I like it. Here are my thoughts: We have been trained to find thin bodies attractive. We don’t inherently find thinness attractive, especially from a survival perspective. But culturally speaking, thinness is often tied to youth, to lack of power and knowledge, to weakness. And inside of a patriarchal system, clearly those things are highly prized as a means of control. We could dive into why valuing thinness is also a tool of white supremacy and colonial violence, but let’s focus more on the delicious question around liking fat bodies.

Of course your friend would be sexually interested in fat folks. Fat folks are HOT. Fat folk’s bodies come in so many shapes and sizes, with so many different kinds of soft places and thick places, and ultra sensitive folds and rolls. Yes. Being attracted to various features about various bodies isn’t inherently problematic or objectifying. It becomes problematic when those attributes are all that someone sees or values about a person or when they hyperfocus on it and try to control it. 

Dawn Serra: I may be attracted to you and adore your fat body – genuinely adore your fat body. But if your body were to no longer fat at some point and I stopped finding you attractive, then that’s probably a sign that I’ve been fetishizing you or objectifying you. The same goes for thinness but we don’t talk about that. If you’re partnered with someone who’s thin and then you stop finding your partner attractive if they gain weight, you are absolutely objectifying their thinness and you’ve reduced this complex human from one of multiple traits to this singular thing that makes or breaks your ability to relate to them.

So, my question for your friend, Am Me, is do they find they’re only attracted to someone if they’re a certain kind of fat? Do they want to control other people’s bodies to keep them fat or to amplify their fatness? If so, then I think that it’s important to be really clear about that when you’re engaging with potential partners so that they can opt in to being fetishized and objectified which some people really do enjoy – but, again, it needs to be consensual. So being upfront about that is important.

Dawn Serra: As far as resources go, I’m not really sure whether your friend is looking for support around fetishizing fat bodies or just really want to feel less alone in finding fat bodies attractive because fatness is so fucking vilified in our culture which is a whole other episode. Certainly there are loads of people in fat activist circles who are teasing this apart. What is the difference between appreciation versus objectification and fetish, especially inside of a culture that literally monstrousizes your body. So that might be a place to find some resources and some community, and connecting with some fat activists. I think that would be a really great place to start. I hope that, at a minimum, it’s just validating and helps your friend to celebrate their appreciation for bodies. So yay!

Dawn Serra: This final question comes from Violeta. It’s a two-part email and it’s about love across borders and all of the immigration bullshit. Violeta writes:

“Hi, Dawn. First of all, I want to apologize if my grammar or my English skills are not too good. But you will tell that this is not my first language. I’ll do my best. Thank you for your beautiful and amazing work. I live in Mexico and I’ve been listening to your podcast for two months and I feel relief every time I listen to you. I’m a feminist and curious about sexuality. I have problems to name some things in English but with your podcast I’ve learned a lot of vocabulary to talk and be more like myself in this language. I never thought that I would be writing a message but here I am, look at me.

A year ago I met someone who’s from United States and we had an awesome time. He came back to visit me again and stayed with me for three weeks. I was amazed at how we connected so fast and we kept in contact with Facetime calls almost every day for months. I fell for him and he is one of the sweetest guys I’ve ever met. Our plan was to visit each other every time we could but we had a problem. I asked for a tourist visa in the consulate and they denied it. After that, everything started to change. Our calls became less exciting, we were a little blue every time we talked, and with time, we gave up because we realized that it’s super hard to be that far and knowing the fact that he’s the only one who can visit is too much responsibility. That started to make us think about things that didn’t feel good for us like marriage and other things that just made it even more awkward.”

Dawn Serra: “It’s s impossible to not think about if I’m with him because I want a green card or things like that, but I really don’t. I love my country and I don’t believe in the American dream. I just wanted to be close to whoever feels right. I’m used to long distance relationships. My best friend lives in Amsterdam and we’re extremely close but this is harder. This situation mixes a lot of political problems that are beyond us and that affect us directly. I don’t know what else to do. I feel impotent. The only thing that I can think is that I need to end with this relationship and I tried, but we keep talking, we couldn’t. He will come to visit in two months, if everything goes well, because he works on TV and that’s unpredictable. But I don’t know if it’s good to see each other again if we can’t do anything. If we’re realistic, we’re barely getting to know each other. Thank you for reading my message and I hope that makes sense. Hugs from Mexico. Violeta”

A second email came in shortly after this one from Violeta and it continues:

“I’m sorry, I was so nervous about writing my message that I didn’t realize that I didn’t ask anything. I just wanted to know if you have known people who are trying to build a relationship despite the new migration laws. It has become harder to be accepted as a Mexican tourist. Only people with a lot of money are able to enter to your country and that’s a shame. I’ve thought that is difficult to face the fact that we’re not just people, we’re citizens of different countries and the relationships between those places affect the way that we connect. It’s hard to try to live out of the norms. This has changed our dreams and hopes, and that’s hard and really sad.”

Dawn Serra: It is hard. It is really sad. And Violeta, this breaks my heart. My heart breaks for you. Everything you said is true. Being citizens of different countries whose governments are not on good terms does affect you directly. You’re right rich folks don’t have to pay the same price that non-rich folks do. Rich folks get access to resources and places and freedoms that non-rich folks can’t, honestly, even imagine. The doors that money opens, it’s pretty extraordinary, and also frustrating and disappointing when we don’t have that kind of access.

This is about racism. This is about classism. This is about xenophobia. This is about colonization. There are massive oppressive systems at play and they’re having a direct impact on a very personal relationship of yours. I’m so sorry that this is hard. I’m so sorry that this is where we find ourselves. I’m sad that more U.S. citizens aren’t taking direct action against this fascist government that’s enslaving people from places like Mexico, Honduras, and other Latin American countries. If it’s too hard, it’s OK to break things off because the truth is, these are situations that aren’t likely to change anytime soon. 

Dawn Serra: My hope is that Trump gets impeached along with everyone else and the Conservative party is obliterated, and the relations between the U.S. and Mexico improve. I mean, that’s just a starting point, that’s not even a liberatory dreaming. It’s just a baseline. But even if that happens it could be months or years before travel from Mexico to the U.S. is easier. Because what’s really sad is that U.S. citizens have been groomed through decades of xenophobic propoganda to fear Mexicans and people from Central and South America. It’s ridiculous and it’s unfounded, but it is true. And that has an impact on whether you can easily travel to the U.S.

Alex and I nurtured our relationship for almost three years across a border and it was hard but both of us could freely travel to meet the other and we took turns. Honestly, if something happened, where maybe Alex couldn’t come to the U.S anymore and I was the only one who could travel, I would have taken it upon myself to do all the traveling, at least for as long as I could. I know Alex would have chipped in financially, so that it wasn’t a financial burden on me but a time and energy burden on me. I don’t know how long we could have kept that up. Getting married meant I could move to Canada so that we could be together. 

Dawn Serra: I think you and this man from the U.S. probably need to have some more conversations about what is true and what is possible, and what you can work with. How would it feel if he can only travel to Mexico and only a couple of times per year? For some people, a relationship like that would honestly be a dream come true. Super hot sexy visits to look forward to without having to change much about your day to day life. For others, that would be too painful to continue. I wish I could wave a magic wand and eliminate all of this violence and all of this border bullshit, and the racism and so much beyond that.

But I think the truth is it’s up to you to ask yourself is there a way to exist in this situation and for it to feel good and yummy and hopeful and fun? And if there is a potential for that, then what do you need in order for that to happen? If that’s not possible, then what do you need so that you can grieve and move on? I’m so sorry, Violeta. It’s not right. It’s not fair. Everything is wrong with how the U.S. deals with its borders. And I hope that you and this person are able to find a way to feel nurtured and connected and supported, even though things aren’t how you wished they could be. I am sending you so much love and so much solidarity. Thank you so much for listening.

Dawn Serra: That’s it for this week’s show, everyone. Patrons, be sure to head to patreon.com/SGRpodcast for Sex Gets Real – SGRpodcast to tune in for your bonus. If you don’t yet support the show, your support would mean so much to me. patreon.com/SGRpodcast – bonuses, weighing in on listener emails, all kinds of goodies. I’ll be back next with an epic, and I mean EPIC, conversation with Tristan Taormino. So tune in. We are going to geek the fuck out on all the things. Until next time. Bye.

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured and this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses. 

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?