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It’s me, my anxiety, and your emails. This week’s selection includes advice on coming out, BDSM research, long distance love, and unprotected sex and herpes.
At the top of the episode, I mentioned Ella Dawson’s new piece, “In Case I Am Ever Murdered By a Man” and you can check it out here. Later in the episode, I refer a listener to Ella for her herpes activism, so use that link to get over to Ella’s site and you’ll see Herpes at the top of the page.
Our first email is from a Patreon supporter, Tri. Tri has advice for a listener who wrote in a few weeks ago about a girlfriend who won’t come out. I share Tri’s advice and add a few of my own thoughts. Basically, each of us gets to come out in our own time, even if others don’t understand.
Suva wrote in because they are looking for BDSM researchers who are working with play theory. If anyone has any leads, let me know. In the meantime, I recommend checking out the researchers and articles in sexology journals. Here’s a list of journals on Wikipedia.
A little sidebar, too. Hear about a tiny oops Alex and I had with some lube this week.
Plus, my anxiety makes a little show. That’s life.
Moving on, Lady Shy is a trans woman in a polycule, and one of her partners is about to move across the country. She hasn’t done well with long distance relationships in the past. How can she set them up for success after this move happens? She really wants to preserve the relationship.
Long distance can be hard, and it can also be such a beautiful opportunity for creativity and using all of this delicious technology we now have.
What if you don’t find your partner attractive? Is that normal? Is it a problem? How important is it to find your partner attractive?
Let’s talk about why attraction isn’t always the most important thing and being in honest relationships.
Anxious Annie has herpes. Her boyfriend insists it’s not a big deal, but they’ve been having condom-less intercourse and AA is feeling really stressed about it. What if he gets herpes? What if she could have protected him? Does she trust his ease with it all? And if condoms would help ease her anxiety, should she insist on them or work on de-stigmatizing her own stories and beliefs?
Let’s talk about autonomy, herpes, and taking care of ourselves.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
About Host Dawn Serra:
Dawn Serra is a therapeutic Body Trust coach and pleasure advocate. As a white, cis, middle class, queer, fat, survivor, Dawn’s work is a fiercely compassionate invitation for each of us to deepen our relationships with our bodies and our pleasure as an antidote to the trauma, disconnection, and isolation so many of us feel. Your pleasure matters. Your body is wise. Dawn’s work is all about creating spaces and places for you to explore what that means on your terms. To learn more, visit dawnserra.com or follow Dawn on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.
Dawn Serra: Welcome to this week’s episode everybody. It is almost December 2018. I don’t know where the year went, but holy smokes. It’s not only almost December. It is dark as fuck in the evenings. I’ve been feeling like it’s 9 or 10:00 PM at like 5 because it just gets so dark up here in Vancouver. I am still not used to that in the winter, but that’s okay. We’ll get through it, almost the holidays and then we’ll head into 2019 which is completely and utterly wild. This week is going to be you and me and more of your questions and just so you know, I am still looking for more questions. I’ve got some interviews lined up. I’m going to have an episode with a Andrew Gurza talking more about sex and disability super soon and a couple of other really great folks, but I want to feature your questions as we close out the year and start 2019.
So if you’ve got questions, if you could use help with resources, with places where you’re feeling stuck with shame with curiosity, feel free to email me. You can either shoot an email to info at sexgetsreal dot com or if you want to do it anonymously, you can go to a dawnserra.com and use the send a note link, and that will give you an opportunity to send an anonymous message my way. Of course, people also message on Facebook @SGR Podcast and Instagram, which is @dawn_serra – SERRA. So there’s lots of ways to reach out, but your questions would be welcome. That way, I can flood Patreon with your questions and flood the show with all kinds of yummy things directly from you. So that’s where we’re going this week.
Dawn Serra: Before we jump in to listener questions, there’s an article that’s been circling. I’ve seen many of my sex educator colleagues and friends share it and it is by Ella Dawson. Now you might recognize Ella because for many years she was a very avid and vocal herpes advocate, working to de-stigmatize herpes and to be very upfront about living life as someone with herpes. She’s done incredible work over the years and she continues to write and share thoughts. And in response to Dr. Tamara O’Neal’s murder, who is a woman who was murdered by her ex when she was working at a hospital just a couple of weeks ago, Ella wrote a piece called To Read In Case I’m Ever Murdered By A Man. Lots and lots of people are sharing this and saying, “This is too real. This is so familiar. Me too. I have those names, I have those lists, I have those screenshots,” and I think it just – it’s hitting a nerve with a lots of people in my social circles around the realities, especially of being visible as sex educators, as therapists, as people who are social media influencers or creating content online.
To be visible is to be on the receiving end of angry, hateful messages from men. And this piece from Ella, I think, is just an important read for everyone, to kind of grapple with what it means to be on the receiving end of that kind of violence all over the time and how not surprising it is. Sadly, when we hear that yet another woman or person – trans woman, cis women – were killed at the hands of men. And this is not to vilify men, but it is to vilify toxic masculinity and patriarchy and sexism; that keeps all of us locked in systems of a violence and not enoughness of shame and insecurity. I will have a link in the show notes if you want to check it out because it is definitely getting a lot of attention in my circles and it might give you some food for thought.
So let’s jump into listener questions. Now, one of the bonuses that you get if you’re a Patreon supporter at the $5 level and above is the opportunity to help me field listener questions. And I got an email from a patron who wanted to provide some input to a listener question that I had posted asking for help. Now I did share my thoughts on this listener question a couple of weeks ago, but I want to share Try’s thoughts as well. So just as a refresher, the listener question that you might remember is from someone who was anonymous that said, “I’m a girl and I’m dating a girl. We’ve been together for almost eight months, but we both technically aren’t out. I’ve told a couple of people who are close to me and we’ve told a couple of people together. But my girlfriend hasn’t told anyone and every time I ask her about it, she says she doesn’t care if they know, but she doesn’t know how to bring it up. And so the question was, how do I address this with her? And what can I do to make it clear that it’s upsetting me without seeming like I’m pushing for her to come out.”
So Try wrote in and said, “First time emailing but longtime listener for I don’t know how long but years.” So, thank you, Try. It says, “I love your work, keep it up. I enjoy listening and taking in the education and in order to enlighten myself and share your knowledge with the rest of the world. So regarding the girlfriend troubles, I believe there’s a fine line between someone moving at their own speed and then moving in conjunction because someone they are committed or going to be committed to. First point, just because one of them has become comfortable enough to start coming out to their friends. It doesn’t mean the other person is quite there yet. I think that we need to be mindful that each person goes at different speeds and that’s entirely up to them to come out to the people they want to. It’s a very nerve wracking experience for several, if not all people, just because of the world we live in and everyone has had their own headspace of how intense that will be. If they don’t care if anyone knows, then they may feel that there’s no need to tell others because it isn’t anyone’s business but their own. But they must take their own steps into owning their coming out instead of coming out because someone pressured them into it. That might turn into some sticky business.”
Dawn Serra: “Second Point, support for the person coming out is incredibly important. If the person coming out can not feel comfortable or as attacked by who they may have thought was a close friend, they might have a really traumatic experience around coming out. At that point, it will be even more difficult to find someone who they may feel comfortable coming out to. As this person’s partner, I believe that being a beacon of support and of safe space is important to emphasize when broaching the subject. But that partner must understand that coming out may have been completely different experiences for both of them and that should be respected. They should allow the space for them to come out on their own terms.”
“My approach to the situation would be, be calm and do the best to not escalate emotions when bringing it up. Let your partner know how much you care about them. Create that safe space for them to feel comfortable in whatever environment you’ll be in. Make them understand that you want to have a conversation that may get uncomfortable for both of you. Express that you have concerns and that it’s upsetting for you. Instead of saying something that may seem like you’re blaming them for being upset. Offer them solutions since they expressed that they don’t know how to bring it up with others, maybe it feels awkward for them. Maybe that position makes them feel scared and they end up defaulting to keep the status quo. But there may be a point where you just have to back off and let them know you’ll be there for them no matter what. I hope this is helpful. Thanks for sharing this with us.”
Thank you so much, Try, for sharing your thoughts and wisdom. I agree that coming out is a super personal process and we may move faster or slower than the people in our lives. And because it’s such a personal thing based on family and history, friendships and what we’ve witnessed around us, we need to decide to go at our own pace. And being able to talk about it is important and I like how you let them know I really care about you and I want this to be a really welcoming space for us to both be able to have our experiences and stories. I’d like to share a little bit what’s going on with me and I don’t want it to feel like it’s coming with an expectation. So if you’d like some advice, maybe we can brainstorm some role playing or try some things out in a way that feels good for you. But if you’re just not ready, that’s okay too. So thank you so much, Try.
Dawn Serra: To everybody listening, if you want to help give advice on listener questions, all you have to do is go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast and support at $5 at month and above. That gets you the weekly bonus content that the $3 a month and above folks get. Plus, access to listener emails that I share a couple of times a month that you can weigh in on if you’d like. So thank you for listening to the show, Try and for weighing in. And to everybody else who listened, if you want to put your sex educator cap on, all you have to do is head to Patreon.
Suva wrote in with a subject line of Children’s play and Sex: Hi Dawn. First, thank you so much for the podcast. Discovering Sex Gets Real has been a real revelation to my wellbeing and confidence. I no longer feel alone and ashamed for my preferences and feel more able to stand up for my own needs, out with sex and relationships too. Coming to terms with my love of submission and pain has freed up space in my mind for all of my passions and the world feels more vibrant. It is also helping me recover from some sexual trauma. I hope that more people discover your work and get to feel the same benefits. Second, I’m a researcher that specializes in children’s play. I see so many parallels between how children’s play is theorized and typologize in sex, particularly BDSM. I would love to do some work that compares these things. But this would not be a wise career move if I want to continue working with children, nor do I think it would be easy to get funding. Still, I would love to explore this area in my own time as I think it could be important. I wonder if you know of any work I could read in this area or anyone that maybe is working in this kind of thing. Thanks again, Suva.
I love play research. So, first of all, thank you so much for listening Suva and for writing and with such kind words. It touched me so deeply. Play is one of my favorite things. I love reading about play research. I love incorporating play into as much as possible around what I do – hat tip to Stuart Brown and Brené Brown for turning me on to those things. I think it’s so important for all of us to be able to reconnect with that childhood delight, that sense of wonder and curiosity, losing ourselves and things that feel good. You’re right, there are a lot of parallels between play as kids do it and play as adults do it, specifically within the BDSM community. But really any kind of play that has to do with expressing ourselves sexually, I think has a lot of parallels.
Dawn Serra: Now I’ve heard Midori talk a lot about play and BDSM. She’s not a researcher or a scientist. It’s just from her many decades of being a BDSM enthusiast and expert. She talks a lot about child’s delight with grown up toys, kind of being her definition of BDSM. So if you’re not familiar with Midori, I would highly recommend checking her out. She talks about that a lot when she speaks about BDSM and it’s a wonderful reminder that BDSM is play. We don’t have to take it seriously. It doesn’t have to be dark and deep and painful unless we want it to be. And even then, painful things can be silly and ridiculous and wonderful and playful.
As for academics and researchers who are exploring these things, I don’t know of anyone off the top of my head. But I am going to link in the show notes to a list of sexology journals that I found and that might be a great place to start diving into the academic and scientific journals around sexuality and sex research; to see if you find any pieces on play or any research on BDSM that then maybe you could kind of dive into, reach out to the researchers and see what kind of ties they’ve had to play research. So the list of sexology journals will be in the show notes for this episode and there’s a lot of them so it’s going to take a little bit of leg work. But I’ve also reached out to several of my colleagues to ask if they know of anybody and if I hear of anything down the road, I’ll be sure to share it on the show so that you can get connected with them.
Dawn Serra: The weirdest thing just started happening, this is a total aside. But I recently got a diffuser for my office and I’ve only used it three or four times. Every single time I use it with an essential oil including oils that I love and use in the bath and other places, it triggers a panic attack. I literally started having an anxiety attack while I was answering that last question and I am feeling so weird. My heart is racing and it’s hard to breathe. I turned off the diffuser but whew – It is bizarre. I think I might have to move it out of my office and just the farther away so that it gently pumps scent in instead of being so intense because I’m actually in an anxiety attack right now, which is really uncomfortable. But I’m just going to pause and take a few breaths, which you won’t notice because of the magic of editing and when I come back, hopefully I’m a little more grounded in presence so that I can be my best self for you.
All right. I took a couple of minutes to do a little bit of grounding and some breath work that my therapist taught me. I’m feeling a little less stimulated. So now I can be here with you and we can continue with listener questions. Oh my God. I also have to tell you all, the other day Alex and I were having some sexy time and we were trying to fill up a lube shooter and in trying to get some of the air out before using the lube shooter, we accidentally sprayed the bathroom mirror with a lube shooter full of silicone lube. So sexy time had to be put on hold in order for us to clean up, said mirror from the mess. There was much giggling and laughing and then we had to find our way back to sexy time. I was cracking up and it was just so real. Man, that’s how sex can be sometimes. That just hit me and I wanted to share that with you because you know what? There it is: adulting and sex in a nutshell.
Dawn Serra: Okay, so the next listener question came from Lady Shy and the subject line is Short Distance to Long Distance: First I want to say thank you for providing a wonderful podcast and doing amazing work for all the people that need safe space to get past their negative feelings and exploring new ones. So a bit of backstory, I apologize for any run on sentences, grammar issues ahead of time because I am a typo queen. I am a transgender MTF and I’ve had a feeling since early elementary school, but no vocabulary for it till I was 19. I soon after started my transition. During all those years, I bottled up all of these emotions along with the social abuse of school for no reason other than being me and getting beat up on a weekly basis. I’m getting punished alongside the people who attacked me. I had no real support from my parents and only mixed and false messages on a rare basis. So I developed a huge mistrust of people and I get extremely nervous that they do not have the best interest for me or that they’ll even be genuine.
Thankfully, I’ve been making amazing strides, thanks to my boyfriend of five years and my sister who brought me into being able to start trusting and enjoying relationships. Unfortunately, I still have a hard time with dealing with things and letting them be as they are, trusting that people aren’t going to go away just because I’m not in constant contact with them. Coming to the actual part of my concern, I now have a wonderful supportive polycule with my boyfriend, girlfriend, and her boyfriend. Things have been going really well and continue to do so. But the main problem is that later next year, my girlfriend is moving across the country to move in with her boyfriend, me and my girlfriend agree that we wish to continue being together, but I’ve never been able to handle a long distance relationship due to me over clinging and not being able to touch and hold my partner. My girlfriend does know what I’m feeling and I would like some advice to try and find peace so that we can make this wonderful relationship continue down the line.
Thank you so much for writing in, Lady Shy. I know a lot of people listening can feel that so hard going from being in close proximity to each other where you’re able to touch and see each other on a regular basis to long distance is hard; and there’s no way around that. It’s just hard. Some people thrive in long distance relationships for a variety of reasons and other people really struggle. That’s not to say that you can’t make it work and find your own ways through, but you will have to kind of feel your way into what does this feel like with this person? Because one of the things that I have learned is that long distance relationships can be very different depending on the people that are inside of them.
Dawn Serra: I’ve had long distance relationships that were just epic failures from the beginning. It sucked and it hurt and there was lying and just a massive things. And I’ve been in long distance relationships that actually we were able to manage the distance and find really creative ways to stay in touch and to care about each other, and to have trips to look forward to. So I think being able to communicate with your girlfriend is key and since she already knows what you’re feeling, it sounds like you’re kind of in an ideal situation where as you move towards her moving away, the two of you can start front loading, “Here’s some of the things that I think are going to be toughest for me. Here’s how I’d like to stay in touch.”
Being able to make big plans and have something to look forward to is so important in a long distance relationship. And I think that might also help with some of the clinging that you’re talking about. So much of our insecurities get triggered when we don’t know when things are going to happen. You know, for me, my anxiety absolutely gets triggered when I’m not certain of when something’s going to happen or if something’s going to happen or what it’s going to be like. My brain is really good at spinning about 20,000 different catastrophes out of something that hasn’t even happened yet. And so often being able to say, “Okay, if we can make a ritual of date night every Tuesday and a mini check in every Saturday, and we’ll save up and try to see each other in person twice a year on these days.” Knowing that those things are on the calendar and that when you’re having a tough day in the next 48 hours or 24 hours, you’re going to be able to video chat with each other and have a nice yummy date together. That can really help with some of those feelings.
Dawn Serra: Also being able to lean on your boyfriend and ask for support around the feelings that are going to come up. If you can bring your boyfriend in as another source of support around that, that might be a really wonderful thing, and then also getting excited about the creativity that can happen through a long distance relationship. There’s so many ways that we can connect now because of technology from watching a movie together at the exact same time and videoing and having sex with teledildonics, to being able to Facebook live when you’re out and about maybe sitting at the park together or reading books. The sky is the limit as far as your creativity goes. Having other people in your life that can support you, I think, is a really important thing. So in addition to your boyfriend who are your friends that you can reach out to or your community, make plans with them, especially once your girlfriend moves away. Being able to be in community with others to have something that’s going to get you out of the house if you’re having a tough day. Those are all so important.
Best that the both of you can do is just say, “We’re going to try our darndest,” and there might be some really tough times, but I trust that we’re going to be able to work our way through them and that we’re going to try and be as creative and patient with each other as possible. Because it is a whole new paradigm, and so it’s going to take some adjustment and there’s going to be grieving probably and there’s probably going to be frustration. And if the two of you know that going ahead or if everyone in the polycule is aware of that – that feelings might be kind of intense, it might be a little uncomfortable until you find your new normal. If everyone’s on board with that, then everyone can support each other. That’s one of the beautiful things about having multiple people in your life that you care about and trust.
Dawn Serra: Start thinking about rituals you want to create together, things that you can get in the calendar and commit to, at least for a couple of weeks at a time. Schedules might get busy, being in a new place, but if you know every Tuesday is date night for the two of you or for the group of you and you’re going to text a couple of times a day or exchange playful emails – think about ways that you might want to continue to date each other that feels really special and connected based on the interests that you both have. There are so many people that I know, myself included, who have had really wonderful loving, connected, sexy, long distance relationships across a variety of distances. And in fact, I know a couple of people who have been in long distance relationships and they kind of plan to keep it that way.
They like having some space and some autonomy, having their own homes so that they’re not cohabitating. Not everybody wants to cohabitate and being able to go out with friends whenever they want to and have this relationship that a couple of times a week they have their cyber dates or their phone dates. They really look forward to getting together a couple of times a year and that’s the relationship that just works best for them. So thank you so much for listening, Lady Shy, and best of luck to you. I appreciate you writing in with your question.
Dawn Serra: I got an anonymous question on social media a couple of weeks ago and so I want to share it with all of you and I’m also really curious to hear what you all think so feel free to write in with your thoughts. The question says: Hey, new listener here. I have a question. I’ve been with my boyfriend about six months. We have good sex and I do like having sex with him, but I don’t really find him attractive at all. The reason I initially got with him was because I had gotten out of an abusive relationship and I was single for almost a year. I really wanted to move on. He and I met – he was very sweet to me and I just liked him. But I never really found him attractive. Is this unusual? Should I be worried about it?
Juicy question. Interesting question. There’s so many places we could go with this. The first thing that I want to offer is that not everyone needs attraction in order to feel fulfilled and connected in a relationship. People enter into all different kinds of relationships for all different kinds of reasons and as long as you’re staying true to yourself and being honest about what it is that you need and want, then I don’t see a problem.
I think there are lots of people who are in relationships where attractions either very low on the list of reasons that they stay together or it’s just not there at all and that’s only a problem if it’s a problem. If you really want to be attracted to the person that you’re partnered with and not having that attraction feels bad. If you’re staying out of a sense of obligation or just because he’s there and you’re not really particularly interested or committed in other ways, then I think that’s kind of shitty. So what you need to do is really evaluate what are the reasons that you’re in this relationship with your boyfriend? What are the needs that you have when it comes to relationships? You said he’s really sweet to you. Kindness might be a really important factor. Is humor important? Are shared interest important or shared friends? Is respect important? Is sexual creativity important? Is self expression important?
Dawn Serra: One of the questions that I always come back to when we’re talking about relationships, and this is true with friendships and professional colleagues and intimate relationships and sexual relationships is how would you like to feel when you’re around friends? How would you like to feel when you’re working with colleagues? How would you like to feel when you’re in a partnership with someone? And thinking about those things, does this person help support you to feel those ways? So I’m less worried about not being attractive to him and more worried about the fairness of it and you just being really clear on why you’re in this relationship.
If you’re in the relationship because it’s not abusive and that’s kind of the only criteria then I’m not sure that that’s fair to your boyfriend, unless he knows that and is choosing it as well. But if there’s lots of other things about him that you appreciate and that you adore and that you can really honor and savor and celebrate, and you just happen to not be attracted to him, then I think a healthy thriving relationship can absolutely happen there. So there just needs to be some reflection for you. Also thinking about being physically attracted to someone, there’s a difference between being emotionally attracted to someone or spiritually attracted to someone. There’s all different ways that we can feel that chemistry and that connection with people. I’m assuming you mean physical attraction. What is it that you tend to find physically attractive that then brings you into kind of the politics of desirability?
For most of us, the things that we find attractive are the things that we’ve been sold. The marketing messages that we’re constantly surrounded by because of capitalism and all other systems of oppression. The things that we find sexy or not universally truly sexy, they’re culturally sexy and we don’t realize there’s an alternative because it’s all we’ve seen from the youngest of ages and everything that we’ve consumed. There are a lot of people who are really starting to confront and unlearn those stories. People who are really committed to disability justice, Mia Mingus’s interview recently that Alok did with Mia about ugliness is so crucial. Ashley’s Shackleford and Sonalee Rashatwar have really amazing things to say about confronting the things that we find desirable and how often those things are based deeply in racism and ableism and classism. And when we start to fill our lives and our social media and everything that we’re consuming with different types of bodies and people, we often find that the things we find attractive begin to shift and to widen. So that might be just a thought experiment for you to sit with. Are you not attracted to him because there’s something about him that really isn’t a good fit for you or you’re not attracted to him because he doesn’t check the boxes that you usually would want checked? There might be something interesting to play around with in there.
Dawn Serra: So I really don’t have answers. I just have lots of questions that I hope that you’ll sit with and consider. What does it means to be authentic and fair to ensure that your boyfriend is in a relationship that he’s consenting to- one that you’re not just performing or kind of pretending to be in? What other reasons you stay? What are the things that you hope for, for the two of you moving ahead? If you don’t see a future and it’s just kind of a right now thing, does he know that? What kinds of conversations might need to happen? I hope all of that said to you, listener – that it just gives you lots of things to reflect on, to maybe journal about, to talk to some friends about and just really have an honest conversation with yourself.
As you hear each of those questions, you probably have a gut reaction. That gut reaction is probably pretty telling. So, where are you landing as you think about that? Are you able to say, ‘This human being is amazing and all of these other ways and I just happened to not find him physically attractive and that doesn’t actually bother me. It’s just something I haven’t encountered before.’ Or is there something else going on of he was a nice bandaid, a nice rebound after an abusive relationship, but there is a lot more that I’m missing and would like or who knows? It could be a combination of things. So sit with that and just think about how can I be true to myself and how can I honor this person I’m in a relationship with? What you want to try and do, what we all want to try and do in the relationships we’re in, we want the people that we’re in relationship with – whether that’s friends, colleagues, family, lovers, whatever it is. When they walk away, if the relationship is ending, our hope is that we’ve done such a great job in communicating and being honest and forthcoming, that when they leave, they don’t feel more broken, more traumatized, harmed, neglected, any of those things.
We hope that when they leave they feel fully seen and appreciated. Like there was an opportunity for growth and honesty. Sadness is okay and grief is okay, regret’s okay. Those are all part of shifting and transitioning relationships. But have we done everything we can to not traumatize this person because we’ve been lying or hiding things from them, or really just focusing on ourselves and completely neglecting the things that they need from us. So think about all of those things and have a little bit of a reckoning and then see where you land. Maybe not being attracted to him is really not that big a deal and maybe it is. But you are the only one that can ultimately actually answer that. So thank you so much for writing in. Thank you for tuning into the podcast. I love knowing you’re a new listener. I hope you find that helpful. If you’ve got questions down the road, don’t forget you can write in again.
Dawn Serra: Don’t forget you can support the show on Patreon. Every single dollar helps patreon.com/sgrpodcast. You can pledge as little as a dollar a month. You can do $3 a month and get access to all of the weekly bonus content. That’s 4 weeks of bonuses a month for three bucks. You can support at $5 and then help me weigh in on questions and you can pledge even more than that if you’d like. Everything is something that I just treasure so much so thank you. This next question is rather long and it’s from Anxious Annie. I’m going to read the email and then we all talk about what the question is, but I do think the backstory is pretty important so we’re just going to dive in and do the whole thing. The subject line is Sexual health, Mental health and personal responsibility.
Hi Dawn, thanks so much for the work that you do. I’m a 28 year old cis woman and I’ve been in a sexual and emotionally intimate relationship with M, a cis man my age, for a few months. We communicate frequently and see each other for romantic dates as well as hookups. And though there is no expectation of exclusivity at this time, right now, neither of us is seeing anyone else. I just got out of a long term relationship and I don’t have much dating experience. The reason I’m writing is for insight on something that has become an issue on my end. I’m not even sure if it’s primarily a sexual health or a mental health issue. I have genital herpes, which M knows about. We talked about it: about how it’s pretty common and over stigmatized. But also how despite that, I don’t want to transmit it to him and how I can’t ever be sure that I’m not shedding asymptomatically.
We also talked about how oral herpes is super common. That’s how I contracted it. And he even brought up the fact that he’s had a lot of unprotected oral sex in the past, so he might have even been exposed already. Overall, he was reassuring and not overly concerned. I told him that my previous long term partner had not contracted it as far as we knew, but I did not mention that we almost always use condoms since, at the time, M and I were always using condoms. Since then, M and I have had unprotected intercourse a few times. It feels great, but the next day I am racked with anxiety and guilt that I may have transmitted the virus and may have downplayed the risk in the original conversation. This anxiety can also pop up at seemingly random times and I need to get in touch with him immediately to make sure he’s okay. It can be quite severe, almost a panic attack. It can be triggered by other stressors in my life, making it really complicated to unpack. But I talked to him about it and suggested we use condoms every time even though they aren’t foolproof. Not just for his physical health but for my mental health. Since then we’ve had fully consensual unprotected sex a few more times.
Dawn Serra: The first time it was his idea. But the next time it was my idea, which I later felt so guilty about. I’m not sure if I’m taking on too much shame and stigma or if it’s on me to protect him as much as possible or if I should try to let it go because he’s giving informed consent. I’m also wondering if it’s on me to take care of my own mental health and put up boundaries around condoms or if he should share that responsibility. Was it crappy of him to suggest unprotected sex after I told them about my anxiety? The sex does feel great and I like the idea of having a partner with whom I can have unprotected sex. Because there are times when I thought there might never happen again, which added to feelings of “broken” or “dirty”.
To further complicate it, I don’t feel conflicted about unprotected oral sex and that’s definitely not something we planned to stop doing, which makes me think that my fear around unprotected intercourse is stigma based and I could follow his lead on trying to loosen up. Yet I do know if he ever showed symptoms, I would assume it was from me, from my vulva specifically, and feel so much shame and guilt. So should I try my best to prevent that, not just for him but for me? Or should I try to work through this stigma and get over it? Thanks again, Dawn.
Anxious Annie, what a gem of an email. There is so much in this that you are doing well and I just – I love it. There are far too many people out there who do not communicate openly about their status because they’re so afraid of stigma and shame and rejection. The fact that you’ve communicated it openly and talked about it multiple times is huge. It’s awesome. All of us should do that. Oh, I wish that very much for us. I also wish for all of us that more of us would both meet someone like M and be someone like M – in that if someone shares with us that they have genital herpes or oral herpes or HSV, that we say, “Cool, not a big deal.” So many people have these things. They’re just like having a cold or a flu, and now we get to decide what feels like the right next steps for us. Whether that’s using barriers or not engaging in certain types of acts or deciding – you know, no big deal. I might’ve already been exposed. But to be able to just have those conversations without it being a big deal is wonderful.
Dawn Serra: So now let’s talk about your question. You have already keyed in on something really important, which is informed consent. M is an adult, I’m assuming. You did say, “My age.” Okay, so you’re 28 and you said, “M is my age.” Okay, everybody’s adults. So M is an adult and M gets to decide what types of things M wants to do with their body. And whatever that is, whether you agree with it or not, is M practicing boundaries and autonomy for their personhood. If you have been upfront about having genital herpes, you’ve expressed concerns, you’ve had this conversation more than once, and M has said, “You know what, I have probably encountered this already and it is not a big deal for me.” Then you have all done the responsible thing which is communicating openly and talking about what you want to do. And then M gets to choose what M does with M’s body.
If you were to try and protect M in ways that am hadn’t asked for, then what that would be saying is, “I know better than you about your body and I am going to make choices and change behavior because I don’t think you know yourself good enough.” Now, we can talk about the ways that policymakers do that all the time around things like abortion and birth control, and how shitty and angry that makes us feel. So the bottom line is when you present information to an adult and that adult says, “I hear you and I see you, and I have thought about it and here is my choice.” We have to trust them.
We have to trust that M has all the information that they need and that they’ve decided. Now that’s not to say that if at some point M started showing symptoms for some type of herpes or something else that M wouldn’t have complicated feelings about it. But M still makes an informed decision about their body. Now, he’s allowed to change his mind anytime that he wants to. But as of right now, it sounds like that’s his choice and so, honoring that choice is important. All you can do is be upfront, communicate, and then decide what do you need to do, Anxious Annie, for your wellbeing and your health. So you can’t control what’s happening to M. M’s made their decision. We need to let that go.
Dawn Serra: Now it comes to you. I think a couple of things could be happening here. The first is your anxiety is real. It’s legitimate. It’s okay that you’re feeling it. There’s lots of reasons that you’re feeling it. I feel shitty when I transmitted cold with my partner. I feel even shittier when I give them the flu. So I get it. When someone we care about gets impacted by us, of course, we’re going to have feelings about that. Now, if that’s causing a lot of anxiety to the point where you’re making decisions and behaving in a way that just doesn’t feel good, I really like how you’re asking a question: should I really take care of my mental health? Yes, you should.
So if right now, and again you get to change your mind, if right now caring for your mental health means introducing condoms at least for a little while, then do it. And then the test becomes: does M honor that? I think that’s a really telling thing. If you say, “You know what, I’ve really been thinking about this and it’s just the anxiety that I’m experiencing is so intense that I just – I don’t want to be feeling this way right now. I’d really like for us to use condoms when we have intercourse and that might change down the road. I’m doing all this other work. But for right now condoms – I just really need us to use that so I’m not freaking out afterwards, as much as I love having sex without them.” If M takes that, accepts it, and changes the ways that you two have intercourse by using condoms all the time, that is an amazing human being.
If you make that request and set that boundary, and M pushes against it, then I think examining some of that shitty behavior is where you’re going to need to go. But setting that boundary is something – it sounds like would be helpful to you. And at the same time, you can also start really grappling with the stigma and the shame that you’re carrying. You can do them both. So what can you do to help alleviate some of the acute anxiety you’re experiencing right now? It sounds like introducing some barriers would really help ease your mind, knowing that M is till choosing this and trusting that M knows their body, you can still make this request for yourself. And then, start reading material and following activists like Ella Dawson, that I mentioned at the top of this episode, and really start learning from people who have herpes and who are being really open about it.
Dawn Serra: Doctor Loanzon was on the show a little over a year ago talking about living with herpes and being really open about it, and how much of the stigma and the shame has shifted for her and how open she is about it now. She wrote a book and she’s a gynecologist and really had to go through that. Ella Dawson is another one. Another one is Crista Anne who I had on the show a couple of years ago. You can follow Crista at Pinkness – the color pink (PINK) ness (NESS) @pinkness on Twitter. Crista Anne is a sex blogger and has talked very openly about having herpes and putting that like right at the top of their dating profiles and just being out there about it. Also Christa Anne also talks about depression and mental health. So that’s a really good person to follow who’s really grappling with these things.
For you, the answer is kind of twofold in that – take care of you now and also start doing the work to help shift the shame and the stigma for future you. Because it’s not fair for you to suffer and to spiral, and to spin and to panic when there’s a really simple solution to helping to ease a lot of that anxiety and it’s, “Let’s use a condom for a little while.” So I love the ways that you’re processing this question. I love that you’ve had these open conversations with M. It sounds like a couple of small shifts are going to have a really big impact – trusting M key number one, asking for condoms for a little while, key number two. And then working on finding some people that you really admire who are living really out and proud with herpes. Doing some work maybe with a therapist or a support group to unpack some of that shame and stigma, having some support, and then getting to reevaluate. Maybe a couple months down the road, that anxiety is going to ease enough that not using condoms isn’t a big deal anymore.
And then if at some point, M does show symptoms for genital herpes or oral herpes, the two of you can have a conversation just like conversations you’ve already had about what that means and if that changes anything. And like M said, they have had sex with other people and he’s had unprotected oral sex in the past so he might’ve been already exposed. I know if the temptation is to say, “This is my fault,” but M even acknowledges, “I might already have this and just not know. I might be asymptomatic right now.” So having that support and having those resources of people you can turn to, what else will help if that ever happens down the road? Thank you so much for listening and thank you for writing in so very thoughtfully with the backstory and the information. It was a beautiful email. I love getting emails like this and it also gave all of us an opportunity to kind of learn and be alongside you. So thank you so much, Anxious Annie. I wish you the best.
Dawn Serra: All right, you. We are done for this week. If you’re a Patreon supporter, head on over to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. The bonus for this week will probably go up on Monday, so stay tuned. Spread the word about the show. Follow along on social media at SGR Podcast on Facebook, @dawn_serra on Instagram and at Sex Gets Real. Or @dawn_serra on Twitter. Both. I would love to see you there. And of course, I would love to hear from you. Please send in your questions and your thoughts so that I can fill the end of the year with all things you. Until next time, I’m Dawn Serra. Bye.
Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured and this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.
As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?