Sex Gets Real 225: Stella Harris helps us when we’re tongue tied

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Have you been feeling stuck in your relationship, frustrated with your body, or totally disconnected from your pleasure & desire? One-on-one coaching spots are available in my private practice and rates are going up January 1st, 2019, so now is the perfect time to book a discovery call and learn more about how coaching might help you. Check out the clients I work with and my rates today.  

Communicating with ease about sex, love, and fantasies with Stella Harris.

Stella Harris is a powerhouse in sex education. Her writing has long been something I’ve admired, and her vulnerability and storytelling are beautiful things. If you haven’t seen her Bawdy Storytelling, go check it out.

So, this week’s chat, to discuss Stella’s new book, “Tongue Tied: Untangling Communication in Sex, Kink, and Relationships” is one I’m super excited about. You’ve heard me mention again and again on this show that nearly all the questions I receive are about saying the scary things.

Well, Stella is here to help us demystify talking about our fantasies, our boundaries, our needs, and to unpack some of our unspoken expectations and assumptions.

Follow Dawn on Instagram.

In this episode, Stella and I talk about:

• Why it’s easier to talk about our fantasies and boundaries to a complete stranger than having a conversation around it with a partner.
• How establishing a stable communication with your partner makes it easy to have conversations about sex without worrying about ruining the mood.
• The many ways we we can get creative in asking how to touch someone and how we often worry about the awkward feeling when they say no.
• Effective communication does not always mean stating a feeling when something is bothering you. You have to make sure that you are actually communicating what you are trying to communicate and being explicit if there’s a request.
• Leaving space for the many layers we have in terms of what’s really bothering us. We have to constantly check ourselves and find out if there’s more around what bothers us on a surface level. Our annoyances can uncover unspoken assumptions and expectations that need to be communicated.
• Why one person’s obvious is different to another person’s obvious.
• How derailing patterns with partners who are in a long term relationship can access new growth that can be both scary and exciting will help you be in communication with each other.
• Challenging people to discuss the ways you want to be supported and the things that might bother you.
• The kind of support we want to get from our friends and community and how it can provide clarity with the motivations that we have with the partners we’re in relationship with.
• How to avoid the horror stories around breakups and instead come from a place of mutuality. Unpacking the idea that there’s only one person out there for you and that there’s only one true love.
• The unspoken power and privilege in relationships and how to move around that space with your partner.

About Stella Harris:

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: Have you been feeling stuck in your relationship? Frustrated with your body or totally disconnected from your pleasure and desire? Are you struggling to find new ways to approach old problems? Well, one-on-one coaching spots are now available in my private practice and rates are going up January 1, 2019. So now is the perfect time to book a free discovery call and learn more about how coaching might help you. You can check out the types of clients that I work with and my rates by clicking on the link in the show notes or at dawnserra.com/ep225/ let’s tackle this together.

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra, that’s me. This is a place where we explore sex, bodies, and relationships, from a place of curiosity and inclusion. Tying the personal to the cultural where you’re just as likely to hear tender questions about shame and the complexities of love, as you are to hear experts challenging the dominant stories around pleasure, body politics and liberation. This is about the big and the small, about sex and everything surrounding it we don’t usually name. The funny, the awkward, the imperfect happen here in service to joy, connection, healing and creating healthier relationships with ourselves and each other. So, welcome to Sex Gets Real. Don’t forget to hit subscribe.

Hey, you, thanks for tuning in this week. The chat this week is with Stella Harris, who is a phenomenal sex educator and she just published a new book called “Tongue Tied: Untangling Communication in Sex, Kink, and Relationships.” It comes out in a couple of weeks if you’re listening to this live, so in October 2018. Our entire chat is about how we can all level up around communication for kink, and fantasies, relationships, our bodies. It’s a really fun conversation. 

Dawn Serra: I also want to let you know that if you support the show at $3 and above on Patreon at patreon.com/SGRpodcast, Stella and I recorded a little bonus conversation all about threesomes. Stella is a threesomes expert and so we talk about why dudes who try to convince their girlfriends to have threesomes are the worst. We also talk about how we can set ourselves up for success with threesomes if we’re in a relationship and how can we meet that elusive third to join in our fun. So, if you want to hear that bonus chat you can go to patreon.com/SGRpodcast and support the show at $3 and above. And, if you support it $5 and above, I post listener questions about once a week – once every other week, and you are welcome to help answer them with me. So, your advice and thoughts and feedback often make it on the show. So if you want to be an expert, too, please hop over there for $5. So thank you so much to all of you who already support and if you’re curious about threesomes, now might be the time to do it, too. 

I also wanted to mention that I have a new limited edition blog series happening over at dawnserra.com called “40 Letters to My Younger Self.” To help celebrate my 40th birthday, I will be writing 40 blog posts that are letters to my younger self about sex, love, my body, relationships, feelings, and so many of the other things that I’ve learned and unpacked along the way. So, if you want to stay tuned and learn about those blog posts as they come out, head to dawnserra.com and subscribe to the newsletter. 

Dawn Serra: So let me tell you a little bit about Stella and then we will jump in. Stella Harris is changing the way people experience their sex lives. As a certified intimacy educator and sex coach, she gives her students the tools and confidence to explore their sexuality safely and free of shame. A national and international speaker, Stella teaches everything from pleasure anatomy to communication skills to kink and BDSM. Stella writes a weekly advice column for the Portland’s Willamette week newspaper and her erotic fiction has appeared in more than a dozen anthologies. So here is my chat with Stella Harris and then don’t forget to pop over to Patreon to hear our threesomes bonus. 

Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Stella we are going to talk all about talking, and communication, and sex today. So, welcome. 

Stella Harris: Thank you, my favorite. 

Dawn Serra: Yes, exactly. So, you just wrote a book called “Tongue Tied” that is all about sexual communication, and talking about sex, and talking about fantasies. I would love to just start with, as someone who’s been in sex education for a long time and worked with couples, why was it important to you to write this book?

Stella Harris: Well, what was coming up as a theme for me, both in group classes and with my private client work with individuals and couples, was that no matter what people wanted to learn, that the piece that I was repeating over and over was the “how to talk about it” piece. In fact, that even how this book was born, Cleis (Press) initially approached me about a bondage book. When I was on the phone with them about that, I geeked out so much about the communication and negotiation that was required to do bondage well. Then they said, “Actually, just do that.” And that just really mirrored my experience with all of these classes. 

When I’m teaching about anything from kink to threesomes to opening a relationship to vanilla monogamous sex, people weren’t doing the talking pieces. People were coming to me. People would come to my office, tell me like, “Here’s the kind of sex I would like to be having with my partner.” And I would say, “Great. Have you told them that?” They would say no, I’m like, “All right. Well, there’s a place to start.” And unpacking why it was easier to come and tell a complete stranger from the internet about their desires than it was to tell their partner. So, that’s sort of where it started. 

Dawn Serra: Yes. Listeners of the show will know that no matter what the questions are about that come in, it’s 95% of the time boils down to exactly what you just said, which is, “I have a thing that I want to try or a thing I need to say and how do I try the thing or say the thing without having to talk? Or without having to be uncomfortable? How can I do it just so so that no matter what, it’s going to be a ‘yes’?” 

Stella Harris: Exactly. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So that discomfort around needing to be vulnerable and take a risk, I think, is such a big part of so much of the work that we do as sex educators is kind of helping people realize, “That’s just part of doing this stuff.” 

Stella Harris: Yeah, vulnerability training really would be more apt than sex education and a lot of scenarios. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, you had this great part right at the beginning of the book that was like, “Interested in bondage? You’ve got to talk about it. Want to open your relationship? So much talking. Eager to try new kinds of sex? You guessed it! That requires a conversation.” And I think that just captures this so perfectly. That people do have these wonderful wants and fantasies and curiosities, and it’s the talking about it where we tend to get really hung up. So, what did you come up with when you grappled with the question, why would someone tell a complete stranger that they want to be fisted in the ass while being set on fire versus being able to talk to the person they love the most or even someone that they’re just in a relationship with? 

Stella Harris: I think it’s a lot lower stakes. If I reject them, if I tell them they’re a weirdo for what they’re interested in, which I have yet to ever say to anybody, but for someone coming in, if that’s the fear, “Oh, she might have a bad reaction to this.” But if that happens with me, a complete stranger, they never have to come back to my office again. If they tell their partner and the partner has a bad reaction, that can have ramifications in the whole relationship. They might fear it’s a relationship ender or that things will now be awkward forever. They can’t just walk away from it the way they could walk away from me if it went poorly. So, I think it is a lot lower stakes. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. And I have found that often, especially when we start getting anxious or scared about something, then we start moving into that catastrophic mindset. Often, I find, so many people get to a place where this one conversation is going to make or break all the things. And there’s so much pressure that gets put on this singular conversation. As if, if we just talk about this one thing once, it’s all done, and we never have to talk about it again. And I think what’s so beautiful about what is clear through your book, and all of the advice that you share is like – this is just a part of being a grown up and being in a sexual relationship or a relationship of any kind is, conversations have to happen. And sometimes, it’s going to take multiple conversations to negotiate something or figure something out. 

Stella Harris: Right. And I think people also when they work up to sharing a fantasy with a partner, they also have it in mind that there’s only one satisfactory outcome. So they have conceived a fantasy in a particular way and they’re wanting their partner to engage with it in that exact way. So they also haven’t thought through the other ways they can incorporate that thing into their life. Maybe the partner doesn’t want to or can’t physically do the thing, but they could dirty talk about it or watch porn about it or read erotica about it. But I think people are looking for only one particular answer, which also raises the stakes of that conversation. And if it is the “set me on fire” example, there’s a lot of logistical stuff going on there. There’s a lot of reasons a partner may be anything from unwilling or just not know how to engage in that with you.

So those are sort of other pieces that need to be in place when you’re having that conversation is having a variety of outcomes that could be satisfactory. And even just sharing the fantasy and being accepted – that alone builds intimacy, even if you never do the things. But I don’t think that is an outcome that people are looking for when they go into those conversations. 

Dawn Serra: I love that so much. That sometimes– And you’re right. Even if you’re just annoyed that someone didn’t do the dishes, to sit in that annoyance is a very different experience than to just be able to say, “I’m kind of feeling really annoyed right now and I just want to share it. You don’t need to do something different.” Then all of a sudden it’s like, “Oh, whoa. I feel so much better and I’m not annoyed and resentful anymore.” And, being able to say, “I’ve got this fantasy and I’m not sure if it’s something we want to do. I’m not sure if it’s something I want to do, but I’d love to just be able to share this inner experience with you and have it held.” That’s such a beautiful, beautiful rich thing that a lot of us don’t– I mean, nobody really tells us that that’s an acceptable version of a sexual exchange. 

Stella Harris: Well, it’s the same thing with any sort of conversation. When we’re helping people communicate, I think one of the first things a lot of us teach is having somebody make clear if they’re looking for solutions and actions, or if they just want to be heard. And like so many things, I think that translates to the realm of sex as well and vice versa. 

I think so many of these skills, they translate from daily life to friendships to sexual relationships to business. I mean, all of this, explaining what you’re looking for out of a conversation can make a huge difference.

Dawn Serra: So, I know it’s something that you’ve heard a lot and it’s something I have certainly heard a lot in classes that I’ve taught, too, is this fear around ruining the mood. So can we just unpack that a little bit because that is something that gets reinforced by the glossy magazines and the pop culture is, you say the thing and then everything’s ruined and nothing happens. What do you say to that question of, “But won’t talking about this ruin the mood?” 

Stella Harris: Yeah. I mean, I have a couple answers for that. Sometimes when I get it in a class, depending on the tone of the class. My snarky answer for that, generally, is that lousy sex has already ruined the mood. So, talking about it really is the least of your problems at that point. But more realistically, I think what happens is that because people aren’t talking in general, what they’re imagining is that it comes out of the blue completely. 

They’re imagining they have gone on a date and kissed goodnight, and pulled someone into their house, and they’ve made out on the couch, and they’ve gone upstairs and they’ve taken their clothes off. And then, in the middle of some kind of genital touch, they are going to pull out charts and say, “A little to the left and a little harder and use this toy.” Sure, that might be a little bit odd. So that’s part of why I’m encouraging people to do things that sometimes I get told are silly. At the end of a date, asking if you can stand a little closer to someone, asking if you can put your arm around them, asking before a kiss. When you have established that kind of open communication, then it’s not weird when you are also talking about what kind of sex you like, how you like to be touched. You’ve already set the tone for that and it’s not out of the blue. And, you’re more likely to have a relaxed partner if they know things aren’t going to happen suddenly and before they’re ready because you’ve already been talking about it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. That fear of the “know,” I think, often creates that silence of like, “Well, if I ask if I can hold your hand and you say no, then I can’t tolerate that. That that feels hard. So I’m just going to grab your hand.” I’ll admit, even me the first time someone – I had learned, “Oh, you should ask before you hug people.” The first time I asked somebody like, “Hey, do you want to hug? I’d like to hug you goodbye.” And they were like, “No, I really don’t want to hug right now.” I was kind of like, “What?” Because nobody had ever said that to me before. It was this weird moment of like, “Now what do I do?” But, the next time it happened, it was so much easier. It was like, “Oh, okay. Cool. You want to shake hands or we just kind of high five it?” And they were like, “Yeah, let’s high five!” So we high fived. So I think it’s also kind of that we make the fear so much worse than it is. And if we just do it a couple of times, then it doesn’t feel awkward anymore, because we’ve done it. 

Stella Harris: Yeah, yeah. There was a story on a podcast a while ago about somebody who tried to battle their fear of rejection by getting rejected 10 times a day. Do you remember this? He would go to the grocery store and ask somebody else to pay for his groceries, ask strangers for a ride – all of this stuff, which of course, there was this piece of– of course, it was a white man so he was safe out in the world asking ridiculous things of people. And he ran up against the problem with people were too nice and he was actually getting yeses instead of no’s. But it’s true. Many of us haven’t had to deal with a lot of no’s and that’s kind of terrifying. And I think there’s some unpacking to do there about how you’re asking the question. 

I run into this in some even supposedly sex positive communities. I’ll be at a party and someone will say something like, “Can I hug you?” But they’re doing it, they’re already opening their arms, reaching for me and clearly they’ve been told they’re supposed to ask. But they’re not actually gauging my interest or waiting for an answer. And so, I think that’s another piece of it is, are you asking because you were told to ask or are you actually trying to start the conversation about what if any kind of interaction, the other person would like? I think the hugging example is right for that. And this is definitely where I make myself a little bit of a weirdo but I have had circumstances where I’m saying goodbye to someone and this got maybe too clinical but I actually said to somebody once, “Would you like some kind of goodbye touching?” And we ended up rubbing our butts on each other. We can make up anything we want.

Stella Harris: I was, actually, recently at a conference and this happened at a table I was sitting at. Some new people joined our table. The person sitting next to me offered a handshake and the person who sat down said, “Is a handshake in particular very important to you?” And the person sitting next to me said no. The other person said, “Well, it’s not really my favorite greeting. How about the fist bump?” And then they did that and then it went into this whole conversation of different styles of a fist bump that I’m certainly too old for. But that was sort of a great example of it wasn’t that the person didn’t want to engage, they just wanted to engage differently. And so, it can open a conversation of, “Well, what can you do?” 

Dawn Serra: That is the thing that’s so exciting to me. That right there is the thing that I wish more people got down in their bones and hopefully future generations will have more opportunities to feel their way into, when we actually stop and ask, “What kind of exchange would be really fun for us in this moment? Or what kind of goodbye, touch would feel good to you?” We’ve now completely eliminated the script or there’s the potential for eliminating the script. And you might end up rubbing butts or fist bumping or doing all kinds of other things that feel so much more personal and collaborative and yummy. Rather than just going through the motions of what you always do or what you assume somebody wants. The creativity and the imagination, that’s possible, when we just shift the tiniest bit becomes so exciting to me because the options are limitless.

Stella Harris: Absolutely. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So much of your book is around really being able to find language and to examine your motivations and looking for different ways to approach conversations and even different ways to collaborate on solutions. For you, what makes for good communication in a relationship? 

Stella Harris: So many things. The self-awareness piece is definitely huge. I don’t think you can communicate effectively if you don’t actually know where you’re coming from and what you need. I think knowing what is necessary for you and what is negotiable. Certainly, there are some things for people that are absolute deal breakers and that’s fine. But like you were saying with the dish example, I think people tend to grow up with messages from the culture that everything needs to be one particular way. So knowing when there are areas in which you are, in fact, flexible. 

So, if your partner is always leaving the dishes dirty, what do you actually need about that? So first, you’ve got the self awareness to say, “Okay, I’m feeling annoyed,” and even identifying that feeling. Maybe it starts with something physically manifesting in your body. Maybe it starts with realizing you are interacting with your partner differently. Maybe you’re irritated when they touch you. You have to sort of pick apart what’s happening here. What am I feeling? Why am I feeling it? And all of that can be already a lot of tricky steps for folks. And then if you identify like, “Oh, it’s the sink of dirty dishes that’s really aggravating for me.” Then what do you want? Was it like your example, you just want them to hear that that’s an issue for you? Are you looking for them to actually do something differently? In which case, effective communication would be stating a feeling and making a request. Because even just saying, “I’m really irritated when there’s a sink full of dishes.” There’s not a request in there. And people often think that stating a feeling is making a request. So someone can say, “It drives me nuts when you leave your underwear on the floor or dirty dishes in the sink.” But that’s not actually you saying, “Please wash the dishes.”

I think that’s one of those things where we sort of fall apart. People think that they have been clear but if the other person isn’t getting the message then you weren’t clear. So that can be a huge part of it as well – just making sure you are actually communicating what you’re trying to communicate and being really explicit if there’s a request in there. Because I often overhear conversations – when I’m having people talk to each other in my office, no requests are actually being made because, again, that’s the scary part, right? Even if it’s not a long held sexual fantasy even if it is, “I really wish my partner would wash the dishes.” That can still be scary because what if they say no? That’s still a no and then you have to decide how you’re going to manage that conflict and manage those feelings. So we don’t make requests even in more mundane areas of our life. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. And I think, too, around that, something that I’ve encountered is – both personally and professionally – is sometimes what we really want and need is a few layers down. We have to do a little bit of unpacking and digging and trying and then realizing that, “Oh, that actually wasn’t it.” An example that I encountered in some work I was doing was this person was like – it was around housework and laundry. It was like, “Ugh, you never pick up after yourself. You always leave your clothes everywhere.” And the response from the partner was like, “Well, if you ask, I’ll do it. And you never asked, you just complained about it.” And the person was like, “Well, I shouldn’t have to ask.” Then underneath that was the real need, which was, “I feel I’m having to ask you to do things that I don’t have to be asked to do.” So now let’s talk about that. Let’s talk about the emotional labor. It’s not really about the clothes. It’s about the fact that there’s this sense of babysitting and caretaking happening. 

I think sometimes we have to have the conversation and then realize like, “Oh, actually, there’s more. There’s something underneath that. That’s not really it.” And to leave space for that is important. 

Stella Harris: Yeah. There was a really great article about that a while ago about the emotional labor of managing what needs to happen. Even if you’re not doing the work, even if you’re telling someone else, “And you need to pack this lunch, and you need to do these dishes, and you need to shop for dinner.” That is a job. The asking is a job. 

Dawn Serra: Yes. Something else that I thought was really, really incredible about Tongue Tied was you continually asked people to examine their assumptions. And that is such a tricky thing. Because we often think something is so glaringly obvious that we don’t even know it’s a thing that we need to verbalize. And that invitation, I think going back to good communication is being clear of what’s not getting spoken and then holding generosity, knowing we’re not going to be perfect around this. I think when we lose generosity with our partners is where we really are like, “Okay, we’ve got some stuff that we need to unpack and talk about. Maybe work with a professional around.” Because I think that the assumptions get us into a lot of trouble. But sometimes we don’t even know where to start. Where do we start in looking at where am I holding some assumptions of something that’s just so obvious that it wouldn’t even occur to me I have to say it? How can I start finding those things inside myself? 

Stella Harris: I think there’s a few ways. Sort of the after the fact way is what we’ve talked about a little bit with checking with our feelings. Our annoyances can uncover an assumption. If I’m annoyed if there’s dirty dishes in the sink, that means I have an assumption that somebody should wash their dishes immediately after use. So you can find the things that are bothering you and then backtrack from that feeling. There’s also I’ll have people sit down and do exercises where I ask them to start unpacking and make lists of what is everything you’re expecting from this relationship or from this partnership? And we’ll usually start with parameters because that could be miles long list of everything you want from our relationship. But when we’re talking about it in terms of certain – the companionship area also often comes up. 

So, if you’re dating somebody does that mean you’re assuming that you always see each other on Friday/Saturday nights? Does it mean you’re assuming you go to any kind of special event, work events, weddings? Things like that. A lot of stuff that, again, mainstream culture tells you this is what a partner does. But our obvious is not somebody else’s obvious. So just both ways – starting up front by trying to do some of the unpacking and making lists. And then, catching yourself whenever you’re having the feelings around either an annoyance after the fact or if you catch yourself having an expectation. If you catch yourself wondering what your sweetie is going to get you for your birthday. Maybe take a moment and say, “Did you ever tell them it was important that they get something for your birthday?” Because gift giving is not everybody’s jam. And I think people, again, will say talking ruins the mood, ruins the surprise. But what’s going to be worse saying, “Hey, by the way, a birthday present is important to me,” and making that 5% less of a surprise? Or having your birthday come and go without them acknowledging in the way that’s meaningful to you? 

Dawn Serra: Yes, yes. Oh my god, I feel like you’re describing my childhood. That was definitely the dynamic in my household that I watched unfold at every birthday and every Christmas was, “I can’t believe you didn’t get me something again.” And then the fights that ensued from that. It becomes really toxic really quickly when that’s an ongoing dynamic. 

Stella Harris: Absolutely. 

Dawn Serra: For people who are starting a new relationship with someone and being able to practice these types of skills and to practice being really open about sex and expressing yourself is scary and also awesome. Because you can lay the foundation for a way of doing relationship that feels good for you. But what about people who have been in relationship for 10, 15, 20 years, and they’ve been tolerating a lot of things for a very long time. And then they read your book or they take a workshop and they realize, “Holy shit, I don’t want to do these things that I’ve been doing for the past 10 or 15 years anymore. They feel terrible.” What do you recommend for people who kind of need to navigate that landscape? 

Stella Harris: Yeah, well, definitely starting small. You can’t remake your entire life and way of relating, having read one book, no matter how good the book is. Often, that is a time for professional help, whether it’s a coach or a therapist or some other sort of support, that can be really helpful. And as you said, it’s easier to start new patterns with a new relationship. When you’re in a long term existing relationship and you have a lot of patterns, sometimes you can derail some of that by trying a new thing together. Something that you both have permission to not know how to do. This is something that I actually really enjoy using bondage for, even with with folks who aren’t kinky. But rope bondage is one of those things that most of us are not beating ourselves up for not knowing how to do already. That’s not something we were supposed to learn in school and it’s something that requires so much communication; that as you’re learning to do that, you’ll learn skills that you can then translate into other parts of your connection or other parts of your sex life. 

For folks who aren’t ready to be doing something that is risky or intimate, just about any task that requires physicality can work for them. So I mean, learning to go rock climbing or sailing or anything like that where you have to do physical things together. You have to talk about it. You have to coordinate. I mean, maybe not playing golf or something that you can do entirely by yourself. But something where you’re relying on another person to do their piece of it to keep you safe. You start learning some of that give and take, and some of those ways to talk that you will then find might start translating into other areas of your life. Because it often takes a complete derailing of those patterns. If you just try to add more talking to the exact sex routine that you’ve been doing for 20 years, I certainly applaud that. But sometimes you need a few more tools before that’s going to flow. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I love the invitation of trying something new or kind of approaching it from a new angle. There’s this sense of, “We’re in it together,” that I think comes with that if we get to create new memories and go new places and feel awkward or unsure together, instead of sometimes I think when we approach these conversations of, “I want to change all the things.” It can feel very much like an attack to the person that is kind of just like, “Where did this come from? I thought things were fine. I thought things were happy.” So, you’re right – being able to reset the dynamic and kind of like, “Let’s try this new thing and see how that goes.” And then start gathering these new memories and new skills and maybe asking new questions. That’s a really generous way to kind of approach these shifts.

I think, then the question is, is that time and energy we want to put in? Sometimes the answer is going to be yes and it’s going to be uncomfortable for a while. And sometimes the answer is, “No, I’m really, really done.” And that’s okay, too. 

Stella Harris: Yeah, yeah. That was one of the things actually, way back in my coach training, a really powerful thing that my instructor said was that people will come to you asking you to save their relationship and sometimes the answer is no. You have to tell people, “Maybe you each need to do your own separate work for a while and then come back and see if doing this together is right for you or not.” But sometimes people are in situations that aren’t ideal for them or they’ve developed habits that are toxic to them. And sometimes doing separate personal growth is the way to go.

I think this is for more than, too, the idea that the individuals in a relationship are always more important than the relationship. And I think that is an idea that we lose. I remember experiencing that six or seven years ago, I got divorced and I remember having had the mindset of, “Oh, well, I signed up for this. So now I just need to be in it forever no matter what, because that’s what you do.” And I do think that our culture sort of punishes that idea of quitting anything or losing at anything as if a relationship is sort of a sport that you have to win by staying seriously miserable, but together forever. And yeah, I don’t think that mindset’s doing anybody any favors. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Agreed. One of the other parts of the book that I really appreciated is, you are challenging people to really think about what are all of the things that are going unspoken? Where are the places where we need to ask questions around, what makes you feel heard? What does monogamy mean to you? What does flirting mean to you? What is it like when I talk to someone of this gender? What is it like when I touch someone of this gender? And, really, where are we probably holding individual stories that probably need to be discussed and bridged? Something that I really love from the book, if you don’t mind, I’d love to read a paragraph. 

Stella Harris: Sure. 

Dawn Serra: Okay, it says, “Before talking to a friend, think about what you need to share to get help and what should stay private. For these decisions, it can be best to have explicit conversations with your partner about what can be shared and what stays between the two of you. For example, sometimes details of sex acts or fantasies might be too intimate to share. But keep in mind that you can always talk about your own experience and if someone is trying to keep you quiet or keep you from talking to your friends, that can be a big red flag.” 

I appreciate the fact that often we don’t ask our partners how they feel when we talk to other people about the sex we have or what our relationship looks like. And I think that’s such an important thing, like a place where we could easily betray or violate someone’s trust without ever thinking that we are. Because that just doesn’t get talked about. 

Stella Harris: Yeah. I think, I mean, that’s tricky on a few fronts. I actually had a date with a newer person a few weeks ago, and by text afterwards, they actually asked me, “Hey, do you mind if I tell my other partner the stuff that we did?” And I was sort of blown away that this person from the “default world” who’s not in any of these communities thought to ask me that. It was so thrilled like, “Yes, absolutely. Tell them whatever you would like.” But being asked felt really amazing and that’s so rarely happens. 

The other thing around that is, I don’t think we sort of realized how we can accidentally poison our friends against our partners. I’ve had situations where a friend spent so much time complaining to me about someone. We’ll all be at a group function together and it’s like, “Oh, I don’t know how to interact, how to feel about this.” And then the next day, they’re like, “Everything is fine now. Don’t worry about it.” Because I do think complaining becomes almost a sport and we’re so much more likely to complain than to talk about the good things. And then that can also create this huge imbalance where everyone thinks all of their friends are miserable in their relationships. But really, we’re just hearing about it when they were having a moment of frustration. But yeah, also trying to decide what is that public intimacy, what is private, especially for folks who might have multiple relationships where they’re sharing information around safety. Some amount of sharing has to happen there. But what do you want to hold private or sacred for each connection?

Dawn Serra: Something just occurred to me as you were talking, which was, I know in my 20s especially, that a lot of the times when I was talking to a friend about a relationship or a sexual experience that I was having, it was more about creating intimacy with that friend. Than actually caring about the thing that I was complaining about or talking about. And I think that is a really interesting place to interrogate like, am I wanting to divulge all of these details because that feels like a way to maintain this friendship? Or because I genuinely want to be seen and heard or I need help unpacking something about this other relationship where the sex is happening? I was like, “Wow, yeah. I performed a lot of that for my friends. And it wasn’t even about the person that I was talking about”. So, yeah. Wow, Dawn.

Stella Harris: Oh, that’s great. Yeah. We do perform for our friends. And I think sort of one of those basic filters that a lot of people suggest before anything comes out of your mouth think about, “Is it kind?” Yes, absolutely. Reach out to your friends if there’s something that you need support around – if you’re unsure about. But how would you feel if the person that you were talking about heard you say it? Are you doing it in a way that makes for a funny story? That is performative, that’s maybe making fun of them, that’s unkind or are you saying, “Hey, if this thing happened and I’m not sure how to feel about it. I could use some support.” Looking at what kind of reaction you’re hoping to get. If you’re hoping the other person will laugh or be shocked, then maybe that’s the kind of communication that isn’t coming from a place of kindness necessarily. 

Dawn Serra: I think it also really helps to go back to what you were mentioning around, am I looking for advice or am I looking for empathy? Do I just need to be heard or do I actually want to try and do some problem solving with this person? Because if I know that going into an interaction like, “Look, I am feeling really frustrated and I just kind of need to be able to say these things. Can you hold this with me, and then afterwards, we’ll just move on.I don’t need advice.” I think that also helps to give us a little bit of clarity around our motivations when we know what we’re asking of the person that we’re talking to. And then, of course, allowing them to consent to that. But there’s a distinct difference between, “Hey, I’m really confused. I love to get your thoughts,” versus “I’m just really pissed off my partner did this thing and I kind of just need to be like…And then let’s move on,” instead of it turning into a great big bash session with both of you going back and forth about what an asshole. Because I’ve certainly done that in the past, too. Just the consent piece on all fronts. Can our friends show up for us in this way and do our partners feel okay with us talking about these things?

Stella Harris: Yeah, it can get ridiculous. I was geeking out with another sex educator who I hadn’t seen for a long time and was sort of filling her in on a rough breakup that I had had. And I remember, I was telling her something about how the breakup conversation went. When I was telling her, I remember saying, “Well, this isn’t what he said but here’s what I heard.” She had to stop me to laugh at me. That was my version of sharing breakup heartbreak was still acknowledging that it was my reality of what had happened. I do think these things eventually get really ingrained in a way that can be helpful and can help you separate some of that hurt from what you’re experiencing to what happened, and what was the intention there versus what was the outcome.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I’ll never forget. I officiated a wedding about 10 years ago for some friends of mine and part of their wedding ceremony was that they had everyone attending the wedding stand and take vows of support. And, essentially, it was, “Do you vow to support us and when one of us comes to you feeling really angry or we’re venting, can you help to remind us why this relationship is important? Can you help to be there as part of a community so that the burden isn’t only on us to try and make this relationship a healthy one?” It was the first time I’d ever heard anyone acknowledge the importance of the people around you and the ways that they contribute and support to the relationships that we’re in or don’t and how isolating that can feel. That’s such a different exchange than the ones that we default to. 

Stella Harris: Absolutely. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, it’s good stuff. 

Stella Harris: Was that a Jewish wedding by any chance? 

Dawn Serra: It was not. It was a lesbian wedding. But not a jewish one.

Stella Harris: That is actually a tradition in more traditional Jewish weddings. Conservative orthodox weddings acknowledge that the whole community has a hand in helping hold the relationship.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Breakups are something else that I know we all have a lot of feelings around. And I would love it if we could take a couple of minutes to talk about in your experiences, both personally and professionally and the work that you do, what are the ways that we can improve culturally and personally when it comes to breakups? How can breakup with someone in a way that’s not just ghosting or a friend of mine had his partner of seven years, leave a post it note on the fridge and then never saw him again. How can we avoid the horror stories of the breakups and actually do breakups from a place of mutuality? 

Stella Harris: Yeah. I mean, that is so rough. We’ve all had the heartbreak at some point. And I think that sort of is the combination of everything we’ve talked about where, a conversation can be scary because you’re being vulnerable, and you’re not sure about what the outcome is. Also, breakups often come when people have hit such a peak of frustration that they’re not coming from a place of kindness anymore. So I think there’s so many things there. I think, one, is the self awareness to know when something stops being healthy for you before you’ve reached that peak of, “I’m going to break everything in the house and walk out and never talked to them again.” Because before that happened, and in that example, it’s probably been a year or more of that relationship not being good for you. So, I think like with anything in a relationship, it’s having regular enough check-ins that you know when something is bothering you enough to be mentioned or when you know when maybe not being fair at all is best for you.

There’s also, I think, some things about our mindset towards relationships. So much of our culture talks about “The One” and things like that and so if people have a nasty breakup… I heard this somewhere recently, I don’t know where but someone was saying that, “Oh, they had this nasty breakup and so they must not have actually been in love with that person.” Because you can only have the one true love so if something ends, that wasn’t it, and invalidating everything you did have together. 

Stella Harris: So I think some of it is unpacking that idea of there’s only one love, there’s only one person for you out there. But that’s sort of looking for “the one” forever and then any relationship that ends is a failure. I have this even with friends who never want to see their exes again, because they are looking at it as a failure. Meanwhile, in my life, I am friends with all but one of my exes. And, even if something doesn’t work romantically – if somebody was already a huge part of my life and we had a lot in common, chances are I still want them in my life. We have to figure out what ways are going to be healthy and productive for us. But that’s one of the things that I like about unpacking some things about monogamy culture as well. Even if you’re monogamous, that idea that ever interacting with or talking to a friend, an ex as a friend is some sort of cheating or that’s dangerous. 

I mean, that’s one of the things that I like about the way some people do polyamory and the way I think people in all relationship styles could sort of model that having multiple intimate connections, not necessarily sexual, but just intimate connections is so vital, having multiple close friends. I think when that sort of your mindset makes it easier to stay friends with an ex, find out what works for you, and to be able to certainly go away and lick your wounds for as long as you need a couple of weeks, a couple of months. But then come back together and decide what can friendship look like for us. What does feel good for us to still have the parts that were good about our connection and to let go of the parts that weren’t working. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, and just the feeling when you think about that. I mean of getting to a point where you just utterly cannot stand that person and all of the energy and the exhaustion and the grief and the resentment that comes with that. And, just the explosiveness of needing to eject that person and everything they stand for from your life, that feels very different than, “This is just starting to feel like maybe our relationship needs to look a different way. How can we create something wonderful from there? Yes, let’s grieve and let’s be confused and sad and maybe take some time.” But you’re right. I mean, unless it’s an abusive or just a really shitty manipulative situation. These people are in our lives for a reason and we have so many memories and stories and rituals that we don’t have to give up just because we transition to a different way of being together. And that, to me, feels so much more luscious because then we can have all these different kinds of nuanced relationships with all these multitude of meanings and that gives us a chance to be seen in all of our complexity and nuance too. 

Stella Harris: Absolutely, absolutely. And if you spent all that time building the safety and the vulnerability that feels like a lot to throw away and walk away from if some piece of pieces of that are still working well. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So the last question I have for you before we wrap up. Patreon supporters, Stella and I are going to go record a little Patreon bonus after our chat and it’s going to be about threesomes because I always get questions from you about threesomes. So Stella and I are going to go there. But the last question I have for you is one that I’ve been grappling with a lot lately and have talked about on the show and I’ve been inviting people to sit in. And that is, trying to find a way to grapple with the personal responsibility that we have of understanding our needs and our edges, our boundaries and our desires, and communicating those with another human being, and kind of the personal aspect of that. How can we also start confronting some of the unspoken power that exists in our relationships? Of the relationships that I’m in, who is making more money? Who tends to have more cultural power? Who’s experiencing discrimination on a daily basis? Who has trauma? Who does the majority of the emotional labor? What are some ways you think people can start grappling a little bit with power and privilege when it comes to also looking at new ways to communicate so that it doesn’t become about power over or manipulating someone using your skills around communication, but instead really genuinely grappling with – is this person agreeing with me because I have more privilege and power than they do? How can we start doing that? 

Stella Harris: I mean, I think that’s huge, of course. It’s one of the ways that I actually like to bring some lessons from kink into other sorts of relationships,when people are negotiating some kind of a power exchange in kink. That is one of the conversations that’s had. This notion that it is a power exchange. It’s not just somebody having power over the other person because we have plenty of that in our real lives. But instead, this notion that everyone involved has power and here’s how we’re choosing intentionally and consensually, and choosing to exchange power for certain outcomes. So, taking that framework and having those conversations, like you said, sitting down with a partner even if you’re not planning on doing anything that looks like kink. But sitting down and saying, “What does it mean if somebody is making more money? What does it mean if somebody is more privileged race?” How are those things impacting your connection and talking about ways that you might want to mitigate that and what does that look like?

I often suggest that people do regular relationship check-ins in some sort of a space that genuinely feels like a neutral environment. So if one partner has all the money and bought all the stuff and paid for the house, maybe having a conversation in that house, even that can be a little bit charged. So going out to a coffee shop or a park or just finding a place that feels more neutral, to start picking some of that stuff apart. And, again, negotiating for everything and coming with a framework of what is bringing value to the relationship like some of the things that you suggested – who’s doing physical labor around the house? Who’s doing emotional labor? Trying to acknowledge all of the pieces that make a relationship work as work – who is remembering everybody’s birthdays? Who’s making the social calendar? And all of that and making sure that those things that are getting done get acknowledged. Sometimes that can be a matter of keeping track for a while. Keeping some sort of journal either separately or for the relationship to just make sure you can acknowledge those things. 

Stella Harris: How often are you reminding your partner they have a meeting and need to wear something nice that day or anything like that? All the little things that we do for people that we live with or care about, and making sure that those things are acknowledged and celebrated and thanked. And,if there is something really blatant like money, having it be an explicit conversation about what that’s going to mean. Ideally, having that before you are deeply entrenched in that relationship. 

So if you’re getting into a relationship with somebody who makes a lot more money than you, does that mean that they’re going to be paying for more than half of the stuff? And if so, what does that mean? Making sure that you don’t get into a position where you feel like, you don’t get to say no anymore or you owe certain things? Or are you keeping finances separate? So when you go out to dinner, you’re not going to fancy restaurants you can’t afford, you’re going to things that you can both split and share. And just going back to unpacking the assumptions, but unpacking every little thing, seeing what that’s going to look like and what that means. Also, are there places where you need to mitigate some of that? Are there ways that you need to give your partner additional resources or raise their voice in certain ways so they can feel heard and safe?

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. It’s not stuff that we see modeled, really, very many places, if any. We don’t see these kinds of conversations happening on TV shows or movies or in the fiction books that we read often. And so, it can feel really scary the first times that we have these kinds of conversations, but also what a tremendous, an incredible intimate experience, to be able to say,

 

“What are the ways that I’m showing up and what are the ways you’re showing up? And how can we do this from a place that feels really co-creative and nurturing,” and naming the things that often don’t go named. 

I mean, Alex and I have talked about the white lady privilege that I have, and the ways that I get to move through the world as a white person that’s different from him. And, we’ve also spent a lot of time unpacking the ways that I move through the world in a fat body, whereas he’s in a very, very fit, traditionally attractive body and the microaggressions that I experience. Being able to really name and grapple those things, and the different ways that that then impacts the places where we may silence ourselves, or where we may take up more space than the other one has led to some of the richest juiciest conversations. And I’ve never been in a relationship where that happens before but I think it’s created a lot more trust and a lot more depth. So, I love this invitation you’re offering of, “Let’s talk about money and what it means to you and what it means to me. Let’s talk about who’s doing this type of labor and how can we allow those things to be true and both feel really seen and supported and excited about what we’re doing together?” That, to me, is where really awesome stuff starts happening. 

Stella Harris: And some of it can be verbally acknowledging that – just making sure you derail comments that are made by friends or coworkers or strangers. Like you were saying, some of the microaggressions pass if somebody has more privilege in one area of their life than their partner does, calling those things out when they happen and if it’s at a place in time that it’s safe to do so. Using the areas where you have privilege to help your partner in areas where they have less. Like you said, there could be – I mean, there can be give and take on that as well like some people have more in some areas, some people have more than others. But using that for good– hopefully not just for romantic partners but for everybody that we’re sharing this planet with. That would be ideal. 

Dawn Serra: Oh, my God. Well, I hope everyone checks out Tongue Tied, especially if you’re someone who has written into the show in the past and just been really struggling with how to ask about a thing or talk about a thing. This book offers so many questions and checklists and frameworks and examples to think through. So, Stella, how can people stay in touch with you, find you online, get the book? 

Stella Harris: Well, you can find my website at stellaharris.net. The book is currently available from all the places for pre-order on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, directly from Cleis. You can also ask your local bookstore or sex shop to please carry it. That would be lovely.

You can find me on Instagram @stellaharriserotica, Twitter @stellaerotica. From back in my fiction writing days, yeah, I’m all over the internet. I’m pretty easy to find. And I would love to hear from you all. 

Dawn Serra: Awesome. I will have all of those links, of course, in the show notes and at dawnserra.com for this episode. Stella, thank you so much for being here with us and sharing all of your wisdom and stories. This has been wonderful. 

Stella Harris: Thank you so much for having me. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, you’re so welcome to everybody who tuned in please go to dawnserra.com to not only check out Stella’s links and to pre-order the book, but also to send me any questions, comments, and stories that you want to share and potentially have featured on the show. You can do so anonymously. Patreon supporters, head over to patreon.com/SGRpodcast to hear Stella and I talking all about thresomes. So we will talk to you there. Bye.

Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses. 

As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?