Sex Gets Real 211: Amy Jo Goddard on sex, power, & leadership

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What is changing in the wake of the #MeToo movement? How do we talk about sex and power?

Amy Jo Goddard is joining me this week to talk about BIG things. Amy Jo is a powerhouse of change, fierce and uncompromising in her commitment to sexual liberation and social change. I’ve been working with her on her Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference – which is a free online conference all about liberation, social change, pleasure, and the world in a post #MeToo movement.

It. Is. So. Fucking. Good.

So, this episode is us geeking out about sexual liberation, tolerating touch in relationships, the importance of pleasure activism if we want to experience real change, the Bill Cosby verdict, what transformative and patient-centered gynecology can look like, and holy shit – so much more.

If you want to sign-up for the conference, it’s all happening April 30th – May 7th. It features Jaclyn Friedman, Carol Queen, Betty Martin, Dr. Willie Parker, adrienne maree brown, Dr. Chris Donaghue from LoveLine, Andre Shakti, Tina Horn, Dalychia Saah from Afrosexology, and many more.

This is actually orgasmic for me – these conversations are speaking my love language. I hope you’re join us.

Follow Dawn on Instagram.

In this episode, Amy Jo and I talk about:

• What happens next now that #MeToo has happened? What voices should be centered? What does it mean to have intersection justice-based conversations about sex, race, gender, pleasure, and the way we live our lives as whole people?
• The Bill Cosby guilty verdict dropped the day before we chatted, so we dive into how we feel about it and what it means for other folks like Harvey Weinstein.
• Survivors bearing the burden of naming harassers and abusers and why that needs to change.
• Amy Jo has been talking to some thought leaders in this space like adrienne maree brown, Jaclyn Friedman, Meg-John Barker, Aida Manduley, Dalychia Saah, Carol Queen, Dr. Willie Parker. What has she been learning from it all?
• How many activists and leaders in social justice movements come to their work because of trauma, and so often leaders in our communities are working from a place of trauma. That causes a lot of problems, and we need to have language for that and find ways to avoid re-traumatizing people inside of our movements.
• Pleasure must be something we advocate for and include as part of being whole, healthy human beings. We cannot treat pleasure like a nice-to-have or something only certain people have access to.
• Why are gym teachers teaching sex ed? Why are home room teachers teaching sex ed? We need to have specialized experts teaching sex, pleasure, relationships, and consent at all levels of our lives – in school and in the workplace.
• Why the learning around sex, sexuality, and the impact sexual power has on our lives never stops. There’s always more to learn, more to grow into, more to be curious about.

About Amy Jo Goddard:

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: This episode is brought to you by Explore More Summit 2018. If you are listening on the day this episode drops, then we are going to be on Day Seven of Ten for Explore More Summit, which means if you sign up, it’s totally free. It’s entirely online. Then you’re going to get 12 talks for free. There’s still 12 more to go. There are some awesome talks that we’ve got over the next couple of days, including Sunny and Ken talking all about kink, Danielle Perez – who’s a comedian – Mia Little – who is a porn performer and a cam person. We’ve got Elise Peterson, who is an artist and a new mom talking about motherhood and Cindy Gallop talking all about MakeLoveNotPorn. 

So if you want in, again, it’s online, totally free and some of the yummy conversations that I have all year long. Just go to exploremoresummit.com to grab your spot. Of course, join our Facebook community. We are having the most amazing, delicious, supportive, vulnerable conversations and I would love to have you there.

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hello, listeners! Welcome to this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. I am your host, Dawn Serra, and I am ridiculously excited for this episode. I want to start by saying that the Patreon bonus this week is a 15-minute discussion that I had with Sinclair Sexsmith, all about strap ons. We talked about strap ons and cock confidence, on why the person that’s putting the thing in the hole is that necessarily the person who is in charge, how we can de-gender strap ons, all about giving and receiving with strap ons, using a strap on even if you have a penis and the transphobia that is inherent in being so tied to our genitals and gender and how we feel about strap ons. It’s so good. We talked so much about strap ons and pegging and all that good stuff. So if you want to hear the two of us geeking out, you can go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. It is a clip that no one else in the world is getting to hear as part of this year’s Explore More Summit. Until it airs, you will be the very first to hear it. And it is delicious! The rest of my conversation with Sinclair is over at exploremoresummit.com. We talked all about erotica, dominance and kink as a way to be embodied and to find power and also the heartbreak of staying in relationship when it’s two or more flawed human beings trying to navigate life together. It’s so good. It is so good. 

I also want to announce that loads of you applied for the giveaway of Jen Cross’s “Writing Ourselves Whole” from last week’s episode. I did a random drawing and Amanda is the winner. So Amanda, if you haven’t already, check your email. I sent you a note because I would love to send you the signed copy of Jen Cross’s book. 

Dawn Serra: What’s on tap for today? Well, my guest this week is a returning guest, Amy Jo Goddard, sexual empowerment expert. Amy Jo has been having these fucking phenomenal conversations. She has created this thing called the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference.” It actually starts April 30th. So if you’re listening to this when it drops, then it’s tomorrow that it starts. But it’s totally free. It’s online. It’s similar to my Explore More Summit. But Explore More Summit is a lot about personal growth and inquiry and Amy Jo’s conference is all about the Me Too movement. It is about power and voice. It’s about tolerating pleasure. It’s about pleasure activism. It’s about ways that we should be changing the conversation about sex at work and in organizations. Like what if we had sex ed and consent conversations in our workplaces as a way to make equality and gender disparity something that everyone is aware of? What if we could change the ways that we do healthcare and have actually empowered gynecology, where maybe your doctor doesn’t even touch you or use a speculum? What are the possibilities? 

This entire conference is talking about things like gender gap, wage gap, orgasm gap and consensual power exchange as an antidote to patriarchy. There are artists and activists talking about how to end sexual violence and harassment through art. I speak on a panel called the “Accessibility of Sexual Liberation” with Dr. Chris Donaghue from LoveLine and Robin Wilson-Beattie, who I’ve had on the show before. Amy Jo and I actually wanted to just sit down and geek out about these conversations. There is so much richness in this project that she’s been creating. I’ve been on the back end and the behind the scenes helping out. I cannot wait for what’s going to happen when people hear these talks. I mean, Amy Jo is tackling race, gender, Me Too, gynecology, the sexual double bind for men, the power of birth and medicine and changing the ways that we do midwifery. There’s a live workshop all about restorative and transformative justice. There’s a live workshop all about the matri– what it would look like if we existed in a matriarchy. I mean, Jaclyn Friedman speaking. adrienne maree brown, author of “Emergent Strategy” is speaking. Carol Queen, Meg-John Barker… It’s so awesome. 

Dawn Serra: So this is Amy Jo and I, not only talking about some of our biggest takeaways, but also talking about really personal ways that we can take these conversations to create massive change in how we experience our own autonomy and sovereignty and power. You know this is right up my alley. Because pleasure and self-care are political. If we can be more aware of these massive conversations that are happening around the Me Too movement and sexual harassment and racism, the more we’re going to be equipped to actually make change happen. Amy Jo Goddard is here this week and we are super freaking out. And because I am working behind the scenes on this with her, I get something no one else in the world gets, which is to share with you some clips that literally no one else is hearing, unless they sign up for this conference. 

Right now, I’m about to share a clip with you from Betty Martin talking about when we don’t directly ask for what we want and we do that hinting thing, which is so passive-aggressive, the places that can get us stuck and all the ways we miss communicate. Then Amy Jo and I are going to geek out and there’s a couple of other really rad sneak peeks, including one about letting patients swab themselves for pap smears. So stay tuned. Geek out with us. There’s even baby goats mentioned! Let’s kick it off with Betty Martin from “Sex, Power, and Leadership.”

Betty Martin: Oh, my gosh! That was a great answer. I couldn’t understand why my partners were not giving me what I wanted. I wasn’t asking and I was hinting and hinting and hinting and I was like… But let me tell you a story, what happened a few years back with a partner of mine and I. We were fairly new to each other. We got up in the morning one day. We live in Seattle. He said, “How about a trip to Victoria?” Victoria BC is a nice little ferry ride away. A nice little escape getaway. He said, “How about a trip to Victoria?” Now, is that an offer or request? Who knows? I heard it as a request. I heard that he wanted to go. I wasn’t really thrilled about it. But I was raised a nice Southern girl and you always say yes. So I said, “Oh. They have that British hotel where you can get tea and crumpets.” Is that a yes or no? Who knows? 

So, three weeks later, we’re walking down the street in Victoria and we got to talking about what we liked. We were window shopping, which turns out neither of us liked. What came up out of that conversation was that neither of us wanted to be there. He said, “Oh. We’re here because you wanted to be here.” I said, “No. We’re here because you wanted to be here.” He said… It was very difficult at the time. I laugh about it now. But it was just when I was starting to think about this stuff and I was just horrified that he had made what he thought was an offer and I heard it as a request. I had given a completely unclear nondescript answer. He heard that as, “Yes. Please.” I think that’s where we often go wrong. We are not clear about what we want and asking for it. Yeah. All kinds of hilarious and awkward and awful things happen because of that.

Dawn Serra: So that’s a soft, little introduction to some of what Amy Jo and I are going to talk about today. Plus some yummy other exclusives. Here is me talking to Amy Jo.

Welcome back to Sex Gets Real, Amy Jo. I can’t wait to talk to you today about “Sex, Power, and Leadership.”

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, my God! I am so excited to talk about “Sex, Power, and Leadership.”

Dawn Serra: Yes! You have this amazing online conference that you’ve put together that starts on April 30th, which is tomorrow for those of you who listen to this when it drops. I have to say I am so excited about some of the conversation– Oh! All of the conversations and some of the people that are involved. So, I would love to start with just what made you want to do this?

Amy Jo Goddard: Well, I think, as I was watching everything that was happening with Me Too, it’s like, “Okay. Finally, this conversation is coming back around the way that it needs to come back around.” I’m old enough to remember Anita Hill. I remember the Anita Hill hearings. I remember being glued to the television watching her as a young feminist thinking, “How is she doing this? How is she standing up to this system that really doesn’t support women?” It made it very, very clear how much it didn’t support women and how race, gender – all of that – were so intertwined. That was the beginning of this conversation. Watching it then cycle back around over 20 years later and realizing, “Okay. There’s this ground swell and there’s this upsurge of all the stories we’re hearing it, we get that it’s happening, whether people are really listening or not, certainly people get that this is an issue and problem. So what’s next? What is the next step? What is the next level of conversation?” 

That’s what gets me really excited is figuring out how can we bring together people whose voices really: a.) need to be amplified, b.) have very different perspectives that we need to be listening to and solutions that are things that aren’t being heated, that haven’t been talked about in mainstream spaces, I really wanted to bring together people from a lot of different disciplines and perspectives and backgrounds to talk about sex and power, to talk about leadership,and where we go from here. So to me, the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Online Conference” is the 2.0 conversation. We know that this is an issue. Okay. Let’s get down and dirty with it and figure it out. Figure out what’s next, at least some next steps. We’re not going to find all the answers next week. But there’s a lot of good stuff that I think is going to really feed people and feed our work.

Dawn Serra: So many of the people that are participating in these conversations have been on the show in the past. For people who love Jaclyn Friedman and Meg-John Barker and Robin Wilson-Beattie and Andrea Barrica and Zena, Sharman. They’ve all been on the show and you have so many other amazing voices. Who are some of the people you’re most excited about folks tuning in for?

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, my God! They’re all so good. It’s also good. I hate to pick favorites, you know. But, yeah. I mean, Jaclyn Friedman’s opening keynote is this Monday. It is phenomenal. You do not want to miss it. So, so good! She dives into fauxpowerment. She dives into talking about what it means to empower ourselves as individuals, and then what do we need to be doing in our institutions and in the collective, which is one of my very big questions. I think that’s a leading edge question right now. How do we do both the individual and the collective work of empowerment around sexuality and race and intersectionality and all of these pieces that are so, so important? Yeah. She’s kicking us off with the opening keynote. Then our opening plenary panel is on intersectionality around race, sexuality, gender and power and all of that with Aida Manduley and Marla Renee Stewart from Velvet Lips and Sex Down South and Dalychia from–

Dawn Serra: Afrosexology. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Afrosexology. Oh, my gosh! I know you and I talked about this, every time we listen to… We’re just like, whhaashha! So good! So good! And really getting into the issue of transformative justice. This is something that people are going to hear more and more about. You’re going to hear a lot about this at the conference. Diana Adams and Andy I are going to be doing, actually, a live workshop on transformative justice in the middle of the conference. That’s also something to really keep an eye out for. I wanted to have that live element where we can really dive in together and really look at what does transformative justice look like? Because our justice system, it’s not transformative. It is not transformative justice by any stretch of the imagination. So what does that really look like and how is that coming out of communities? How can we be building processes of transformative justice? Here we are on the heels of the Bill Cosby verdict coming out. There’s going to be a lot of talk about, “Yeah. What do we do?” Could someone like Cosby be rehabilitated? What would a transformative justice situation look like? In a situation like that where this is a person who has drugged and raped women – countless, countless women – for decades, what do we do in a situation like that? Yeah. Those are just a couple of the openers. 

We got Willie Parker doing the closing keynote. We’ve got panels throughout the week on just amazing topics and people go on and take a look at it. It’s just everything from how consensual power exchange helps us to address patriarchy to looking at the the nexus of sex and power within sex work to looking at–

Dawn Serra: Gynecology

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. Gynecology and midwifery and medicine. Oh, my God! There’s a couple of really good panels on all of that because, I mean, there’s so much around motherhood and around birth and it goes on and on. I mean, there’s really something for everyone here. We talked about the sexual double bind for men. How do we address these sexual double binds that men are in? When they’re trying to be the good guy, but then they also get caught in these patterns that don’t help them and that don’t help us. Because we’re all socialized around gender in these particular ways. I think that these are really cutting edge conversations and I really want people to be a part of it.

Dawn Serra: Amy Jo just mentioned the Sex Work Panel, which features Tina Horn, Cinnamon Maxxine and Andre Shakti, who’s been on the show a few times. I have this little clip of Andre Shakti, right at the beginning of the Sex Work Panel, talking about the ways that sex workers are not allowed to be nuanced or to have bad days because of the really shitty narratives we have about sex workers. So here is a sneak peek of Andre Shakti at the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference.”

Andre Shakti: There’s this thing, I think, with any marginalized community, like say, queer identity, for example, where when I first came out as queer and I was in my first girl to girl relationship, I never wanted to tell my family when we were having any problems. If we just had a fight or something like that or I was, God forbid, hesitant about a part of the relationship, I would hesitate to communicate that because by communicating simply the complexities of that relationship, they would turn that around and weaponize that against me and use that to say, “Well, that’s why this isn’t made for you. That’s why you’re really straight, deep down.” I feel like sex workers are constantly under pressure, if they are out and if they do have a platform like we do, to speak about their work, to paint it as sunshine and rainbows all the time. God forbid, we have a rough day at work. You know what I mean? God forbid, we come home and we had a client we didn’t like or we shot with someone in a porn scene that we weren’t attracted to and who we actually despise. We come home and we’re not allowed to have space held for that. Because it is always turned around and used against us in that, “Well, obviously, this is unhealthy for you and you should get out of this industry.”

Dawn Serra: Back to my interview with Amy Jo. So let’s talk about the Cosby verdict really quickly. What was your initial response on that came out yesterday?

Amy Jo Goddard: I mean, I think it’s twofold. It is yes. To see one of these big guys actually facing, of course, in our system is justice. To really see that this is not just another rape case where the rapist gets off and the women are just demeaned and demoralized and they’ve been forced to tell their stories only to have the disappointment of not being supported by our justice system. Of course, I always want to see that. I always want to see that in the best systems that we have, that justice happens. I think it’s interesting. Okay. We could say the jury’s out. We could say the jury’s out. We could say this is the first case to really go through that whole process. I mean, it was already you know– They had to do it again. I mean, it’s been in process, but it’s not. It’s not really an accident that he’s a man of color. He’s a black man. So I’ll be real curious to see when Harvey Weinstein gets to this point, what that looks like. Because to me, he’s the other one that’s maybe equivalent in terms of just the scope, the period of time and just the ways in which he used his power. What about you? What did you think about it, Dawn?

Dawn Serra: I mean, I’m glad that we’re seeing– I don’t know. It’s so mixed. I’m glad for the survivors who found relief. I saw pictures of them crying and weeping and collapsing on each other from relief that this had finally happened. So, for me, that was the most important part of that. Those survivors clearly needed something and they got a piece of that from that verdict. I love that. But I also… I don’t know. I mean, the prison industrial complex and just the lack of justice in our justice system, I don’t really have much faith in it these days. It makes me… The level of rage that I have defies words. I was reading an article yesterday that said 50 women, at this point, have come forward.

Amy Jo Goddard: With Cosby.

Dawn Serra: Right. With Cosby, Only one had enough that they could do a trial around. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Enough evidence.

Dawn Serra: Right. That is unacceptable unlike every level. I mean, the hopelessness that comes behind that of, will it always require dozens of people in order for one person to be believed? I hope not. But I think at least at this stage of the game, we aren’t skilled enough as a society yet to have these conversations and to believe survivors. I think the conversations that you’re having are a big part of how we move that forward. But I definitely had some really mixed reactions of just, I’m so happy the survivors had that and what bullshit that it took 40 years and all of these people and an entire global movement to finally actually get to this point? 

Amy Jo Goddard: Right. To get one story. Retribution for one story. Which doesn’t diminish the importance of that. And yes, it’s really an important point that we’re talking countless, countless people. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So from all the conversations that you’ve had with these incredible thought leaders, I mean, some of it literally blew my mind. I mean, in one of the panels where people were talking about birth and power and just the trauma that can happen to women in hospitals, one of them said… I can’t remember who it was. It might have been Pamela Samuelson. But one of them said something like, of course, people who are giving birth feel disempowered. They’re on their backs with their legs spread surrounded by strangers and all lights on them. There’s no power in that position. I just had this like, “Oh, my God! You’re right.” The most disempowering position you can be in. So many of those moments happen to so many of the talks. What for you, personally, has been kind of a big aha or a big shift of like, “Holy shit! I hadn’t thought about that before.”

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, man. There’s moments in every single one of the talks. I think I loved my talk with adrienne maree brown. That talk is going to be on Tuesday. She really… I’ve been thinking a lot about this idea of heroism lately. The heroism that people want to have in communities to be the one, be the voice. “Oh. The movement can’t handle it without me.” There’s just a lot of ego. This morning on our Twitter chat with Ms. Magazine, Aida Manduley was writing about that as well. And adrienne just talked about that in such a beautiful way, how we really have to get out of the isolationism and this… I’m paraphrasing here. She says it much more eloquently. Listen to it. But yeah, really challenging that idea of needing to be the one to stand out, the one to say it, the one to do it, needing to be the Trailblazer. That it’s so much is about coming back into community and doing it together and that each of us has that role to play. I think we’ve got to be having new conversations about that and what that looks like. 

She talked about how a lot of times we’re playing out. Leaders are playing out their trauma in their leadership. Because, you know, several speakers talk about this like Afrosexology. Several people talked about how we’re bringing that into the movements because that’s sometimes the reason why people are coming into movements and becoming activists. So we have to remember that inside of our movements, people have been traumatized and we don’t want to inadvertently replay that trauma as we do the healing work because then, that just keeps us cycling back. I feel like that’s an idea I’m really chewing on, like what that needs to look like and how we can just be more effective both within our movements and within our own healing. Which, again, links back to what Jaclyn was talking about in her talk around looking at that individual work. It’s not just the individual empowerment work. It’s the individual healing work. It’s the individual therapy. It’s all of that self-care, and then what we’re doing in the collective and in our communities. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So how does pleasure fit into all of these conversations?

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, my God. It came up so many times. adrienne maree brown talking about her pleasure activism. We talk at length about pleasure activism and how critical important that is. We also… Marla Renee Stewart, on the race panel, really talking about that. Quite a few people brought that up in the panels. I think, also, thinking about births and this idea that we’re supposed to divorce ourselves from sexuality and pleasure in order to birth. That it’s something that we have to suffer through and that actually pleasure is what helps to make that experience so much better for everybody. I think it’s the thing that… I think a lot of times, people look at pleasure like it’s extraneous. It’s extra. It’s just the bonus that maybe you might get at the end of some hard work or the end of something. It’s like, man! 

Pleasure has to be a part of everything we’re doing. I fully believe we would not be here in these human bodies capable of so much pleasure if we weren’t meant to experience pleasure. There’s so much pain in our world. There’s so much trauma. There’s so many things that are wrong with our world that if we are not upholding pleasure and making sure that we are experiencing pleasure every single day in the things that we’re doing, we are going to get burned out. We have to think about pleasure. I went to the goat farm yesterday. I was like, “I’m in the middle of launching this big conference. But I need to go pet the goats and the puppies and everybody at the goat farm. There’s a lot of little beings at the goat farm. The llamas! I needed to go there and just reset my system.” 

Amy Jo Goddard: Being with animals, petting animals, we know that that resets our systems. We’ve got to do that in the ways that we know how. Whether it’s an orgasm break or whether it’s going to be in nature, whether it’s stopping to meditate, whether it’s laughing with a friend, going out for dinner – whatever the things are – taking a bath, whatever the things are that give us pleasure and that brings us joy that we can be doing for ourselves on a day to day basis, we have to be doing that. Because if we just white knuckle it through our activists work, through our social change work, through just whatever we’re doing on a day in and day out basis in the world, that’s not living. That’s not why we’re here. I think we really lose sight of what’s important when we don’t take that seriously. Pleasure is not extraneous. Pleasure is crucial, actually. I would say that’s a big theme of this conference.

Dawn Serra: I even think, at a very personal level – I know you know this as someone who does coaching and has for many years – but so many people are just tolerating when it comes to sex and pleasure and the ways that they experience their sexual and erotic selves, of just this tolerating.So I love this pleasure activism approach of, “No. Pleasure is crucial.” Pleasure has to be a part of the equation if we want to expect to have healthy relationships with self, with each other, with community and do healing work and ask these questions. I mean, it has to be a part of all of it. I love how you’re saying it’s crucial. It’s not just a nice to have bonus.

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. I do think that’s how most people treat it. I think when people are in long term sexual relationships, where they’re not happy, that is what it becomes. I would say, particularly for women who, there’s a lot of women that are just… They’re tolerating whatever sex life they have with a long term partner, that isn’t really meeting their needs. Because they think it’s their obligation as a partner to provide whatever it is they’re providing and their pleasure is so secondary. That they don’t even… I think they get to a point where it’s just like they’re not even seeking it anymore because there’s almost a disbelief that they can have it.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. A lot of the conversations that you’re having, which I think are so important and so overlooked, are when we’re talking about sexuality and we’re talking about relationships and we’re talking about moving past these systems of harassment and oppression, we have to be able to talk about sex at work. That’s something that’s so missing from, I want to say, 99.9% of corporate environments, is a willingness to actually have conversations about sex and consent and power dynamics. Because companies are terrified, so it’s just like, not it. What are some of the conversations that you’ve been having with awesome people for your conference in that you’re thinking about ways we can do this better?

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. I mean, I really believe that we need to be talking about sexual violence and sexual harassment from multiple perspectives. What I think we’ve heard even in feminist communities for so many years has been, “Well, sexual violence is just about power. Sexual harassment is just about power. It’s not about sex.” I just firmly disagree. I disagree deeply with that. I think that our culture’s misunderstanding about sex and our inability to deal with sexuality in a healthy way has everything to do with sexual violence and sexual harassment. I think we do ourselves a deep disservice. We do our movements a deep disservice when we want to create this black and white way of looking at something because it’s so scary to look at sex and how sex might be a part of the equation. 

I think there’s some interesting things that people in feminist movements need to look at. Why do not want to deal with sex? Why is that so scary? I mean, a lot of times there is a sexual neutering that is going on. Like a self-neutering that is going on like, “I don’t want to deal with this. It’s safer for me to be out here talking about gender inequality. But we’re not going to talk about how that impacts us in the bedroom.” There’s a long, long history of that in feminist movements. 

Amy Jo Goddard: White feminism definitely erasing sex and sexuality from the equation because they thought, “Oh. That’s not going to move our movement forward. We’re not going to be taken seriously.” There may have been some truth to that. But that’s not unlike the way race has been dealt with in feminist movements. That is not unlike the way sex work has been dealt with in feminism movements. That’s not unlike the way kinky people have been dealt with in the LGBTQ community. I mean, there’s all these ways in which we can be like, “Oh. That’s not our issue. We’re just going to talk about this squeaky clean, mainstream conversation.” I think that that’s what a lot of workplaces are doing. It’s like this veil of, “Oh. This is a squeaky clean, sanitized work environment and sex doesn’t belong here.” And I call bullshit on that. 

We have a panel on organizations where Andrea Barrica was talking about that. She’s like people fall in love at work. That there are sexual dynamics at work and it doesn’t mean that they’re all bad. But what we do need to be doing is dealing with them and helping people learn to deal with them learn about consent, learn about communication and negotiation. Look at the power structures that could be affecting how people make their decisions and approach those dynamics. That’s the 3.0 conversation we need to be having in workplaces. I would say most workplaces are not even close to that.

Dawn Serra: Oh. Yeah. Not at all. I mean, I think workplaces struggle to even deal with people who are openly dating and much less talking about and acknowledging the power that’s present between the hierarchy that is most mainstream corporations and wage differences and all of the things that then also impact the sexual harassment and the expectations of tolerating certain behaviors. And I agree. It’s a place where we need something that’s not really existed before. I think one of the other big things is I get that human resources is fundamentally about protecting the company not the employee.

Amy Jo Goddard: Totally. That couldn’t be more evident.

Dawn Serra: Right. Exactly.

Amy Jo Goddard: Thanks HR!

Dawn Serra: Thank you for tricking us. I think that’s one of the starting places. I think it was Melissa Binkley from the Art and Activism Against Ending Sexual Harassment Panel–

Amy Jo Goddard: Another great panel. I mean, they’re all so good. They’re all so good.

Dawn Serra: They’re all so good. But this idea of we need to be able to have third-party accountability, where we can disclose harassment and inequalities and injustice to someone who is not fundamentally responsible to the company itself. I think that’s really scary, but that’s the only way we start having better conversations, at least right now. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. I don’t think they can do it from within. I mean, they do need other professionals – people like you and I, people like Melissa, people like Leila Zainab, people like (Sydnie Mosley?) – who are doing the work in other spaces and can bring it in and can really bring this level of expertise. I think that that just is such a theme around sexuality that it’s like even from when we’re young. It’s like you’re in school and it’s like who do they get to teach sex ed? The gym teacher! Why? Because the gym teacher teaches something that has to do with the body. That doesn’t mean they know how to have conversations about emotions. That doesn’t mean that they have any relationship skills. That doesn’t mean that they have any idea how to talk about sensitive issues. I think that this is just another version of that. It’s just like, “Okay. Yeah. We’ll just get some random person to do this training on sexual harassment because that’s no big deal. We’ll just get them to watch a video, then we’ll just call it done.” It’s like, “No!” You need to bring in people who are trained to do this, people who have spent their lives figuring out how to have these conversations and how to move the needle and how to hold a group and how to work with group dynamics and also to create change both on an institutional and individual level. That is what needs to be happening. 

Dawn Serra: Yes.

Amy Jo Goddard: Hire the right people to do it. Stop thinking that you can handle this. I know they’re overwhelmed. I know they’re like, “Oh, my God! We’re freaking out. What do we do?” Okay. So then hire the people that can actually help you have that conversation in the way that you need to. Like Kali Williams, who’s one of our speakers, does great work around this as well. There are people doing this work.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It can’t be, just at the most fundamental level, we cannot be investing in companies that have cis white dudes at the very top of the power pyramid, who are the only ones making decisions. I mean, that’s not where we should be investing our time and our money and our support, if these things matter to us. I think the thing that I just want to stress for everybody is, yes, we’re talking about workplaces. Yes, we’re talking about massive systems of inequity around race and gender and power. But this has such a personal impact on us. I mean, if I don’t feel safe at work, then how am I going to be able to come home and surrender to my body and to be really present with a partner? I mean, it impacts everything.

Amy Jo Goddard: Well, one of my things too, is that in talking about the workplace and addressing the workplace as this sexually-neutered zone, it’s like people don’t come to work neutered. People don’t come to– People don’t get ready for work and they’re in their closet and they’re like, “I’m not going to put my sexuality on today. I’m going to wear the suit.” They don’t do that. I mean, yeah. We put on masks. We do. We play the part. We dress the part. We do the things we need to do. But our sexuality comes with us. We come to work as whole people. So when we don’t address people as whole people, we do them a deep disservice. There are some people that are like, “Well, this isn’t the job of the workplace. We shouldn’t have to have these conversations in the workplace.” I beg to differ. I think that this is a very different world we’re living in. Clearly, the way we’ve been doing it isn’t working. So I think that we do have to look at how can we be having more cutting edge conversations in the workplace? 

I think to your point around the fact that a lot of these companies are being run by cis white dudes who have a lot of power and don’t have a lot of awareness about these dynamics and these issues because they have such huge blindspots. Also, I think a lot of times, their HR departments are being run by white women who are doing their bidding and who are benefiting from patriarchy. So they’re not challenging those status quos. 

Dawn Serra: Yes.

Amy Jo Goddard: So we have to look at those dynamics, too.

Dawn Serra: Yes. Completely. I think we have to be willing to get uncomfortable and we have to be willing to have tough conversations that is at the professional level, that is at the personal level, that is the sexual level. I mean, these skills that we have not been taught because we’re not emotionally intelligent society, yet. We have to be able to say, “Hey. Something’s not okay here. I’m noticing patterns that don’t work for me.” Whether that’s to a partner or that’s to the organization that you’re working with. Yes, that’s risky. But having those conversations is the only way that we make change. Certainly, if we have any kind of privilege, if we are a white cis, middle class and have a certain level of economic power, we should be the ones that are starting those conversations and taking the hit. Because it’s not fair that we’re putting the burden on our trans folks and people of color and disabled folks to be stepping up and trying to do that fight. The invitation is out there. I think the conversations are happening. I think people are just scared and uncomfortable and not quite sure how to get in. Because I think there’s this fear of messing up and saying the wrong thing. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, my God. That piece is huge. That piece is huge. That is impacting us in such unbelievable ways. It’s like if we continue to create environments where everybody is afraid to speak up because we’re ripping each other’s heads off when we get it wrong, we’re not going to get anywhere. I mean, that’s what I really appreciate. People like Marla Renee Stewart, Aida Manduley, Willie Parker…. A lot of the… Meg-John Barker. A lot of the speakers – adrienne maree brown – that are a part of the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference.” They’re speaking about these things in ways that make it safe for people to grapple with the things that are hard to try their best to not always get it right. But to make those– To take the risks. I think we have to be creating environments where people can take the risks. 

One of my best friends is a woman of color that teaches Africana Studies and Latin American Studies. And so, of course, she’s addressing– She’s a sociologist. She’s addressing race in her classrooms all the time. She’s been talking about this, this year especially, with a lot of the things coming to the fore at how afraid students are to speak up in class. She’s like, “If my white students are afraid to speak up in class, we can’t go anywhere. We can’t get anywhere.” And so she’s you know… I think a lot of people in academia are dealing with this. They’re really trying to figure out what are the ways we make it safe enough for students to take risks, for them to say the things that they’re confused about, so that the elephant in the room is out there and we can talk about it. 

Amy Jo Goddard: I think that this is an issue in multiple levels in our culture right now. We’ve got to be really keeping our eye on that. Because then the burden does end up on people of color, people that are always the ones speaking out, the voices that are always putting themselves on the line. That’s not going to work. It’s not working. It’s not fair. It’s not working. And we have to have people in positions of power who are on board and who are speaking out.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I was I had him Imran Siddiquee as part of my Explore More Summit and he’s a pop culture analyst. One of the things that we are talking about was the arrogance that comes with expecting conversations about rape culture, patriarchy, racism to be comfortable. I think that that’s just such an important thing to reiterate. Of course, it’s going to be uncomfortable for us to be talking about racism and transphobia. Of course, it’s uncomfortable when someone calls out your fatphobic bullshit. Because it’s a terrible thing. People are suffering and dying and not having access to basic resources. This shouldn’t be comfortable. So we need to get rid of that expectation. 

That said, I don’t think that it has to be something full of suffering. I think it can be interesting and challenging. I think that’s what so many of your conversations are doing. It’s like it’s pushing us to that edge where we’re like, “Oh, God. This is big and heavy and scary. But boy, are there some incredible people asking really important questions,” and like, “I want to be a part of that, even if it’s kind of scary.” Yeah. Good stuff.. Oh, my God. Was there anything that surprised you in any of the conversations that you had? 

Amy Jo Goddard: You know, I think… Yeah. I don’t know if there was any one thing that surprised me. I mean, I think there were definite themes that came up. So those are things that I’m noting – the theme of transformative justice, the theme of what does the individual and collective work look like, the theme of self-care and how we learn to take care of ourselves and not be so damn heroic all the time, the need for that, and then things that I’ve heard a lot just being reiterated again in very beautiful ways.

I think I think a couple of things I really appreciated was Dalychia from Afrosexology talking about how black folks have a very different experience of sexuality and, certainly, of power in our culture. So then, of course, the responses to the trauma of black folks is going to have to be different. Thinking about that. And then Robin Wilson-Beattie talking about… I love this quote. We’ve been putting it out on a meme this week. That sexuality is a natural part of being human and we have to see that disability is also a natural part of being human. I think that we want to run away from that. We don’t want to look at that. We don’t want to think about, “Oh. Disability might affect me personally one day. Either I might deal with a disability or a partner or someone really close to me.” We don’t want to look at that. That’s very, very uncomfortable. I think just moving in closer into the discomfort and the thoughts that maybe we like to run away from, in our culture of avoidance. I think avoidance is pretty much an epidemic. I think there’s these things that it’s like, “No. Let’s move in closer to that and really think about what that means.” And then, “How could I be navigating where I am right now in a very different way that creates more empowerment for when I experienced that and for those who are experiencing that now?” 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think something that’s just so important is moving away from thinking that it’s about individuals being broken and realizing that it’s actually the water we’re all swimming in is bad. And being able to hold in that the water is bad because so many of us have not confronted conversations and thoughts and beliefs at a very personal level. It’s kind of this weird contradiction of we are fundamentally not broken, the system is and we contribute to the system in lots of ways every day. So when we don’t speak out for sex workers, when we don’t admit publicly that we consume porn or that we masturbate, when we don’t call out a co-worker who’s saying something problematic, we’re keeping the water the way that it is. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. 

Dawn Serra: I want many people to have a chance to hear people like Aida and Marla and Dalychia and Jeanine Staples and (Jacq Jones?). I mean, just these people who have really, really eloquent, nuanced thoughts about sexuality, power, pleasure and how it all comes together in this very holistic experience of humanness. We can’t isolate sexuality or leadership from each other because they influence each other.

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. We keep trying to do that. Oh, and you just brought up another amazing panel. I mean, the panel that Jacq Jones and Laurie Mintz on orgasm gap, wage gap, gender gap is also just excellent because they go into these very specific ways in which those gaps are created. Any one thing on its own we’re like, “Okay. Well, that’s this thing. Maybe that’s not such a big deal.” But when you really add it up and how those getting on the racial gaps, too… I mean, we talked about there are so many gaps that are here and how do we start to fill in those gaps so that they aren’t so big. There’s a lot of little things we can be doing that will really amount to bigger change. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah.

Amy Jo Goddard: But we can’t let up. We have to continually work on ourselves and our own awarenesses, so that we can see the gap. Because if we’re not seeing them and we’re stuck behind our own blind spots, then the work doesn’t happen. It just has to be happening on all levels. It has to be happening with men. It has to be happening with white folks. It has to be happening with people who are able-bodied. Looking at the things that we are privileged around or that where we have unearned benefits. It’s like we have unearned benefits. I think sometimes people don’t want to hear the word privilege. We have– I’ve shit ton of privilege. I mean, I ‘m a queer person. Yes, I’m a woman. Yes. But you know, I’ve got a lot of privilege. I am an able-bodied, white, middle class person that is able to use my voice and move through a lot of different spaces in the world. And so, I want to be looking at where I have those unearned benefits and how I can be uplifting. Like moving to the side and uplifting a different conversation and, certainly, making room for other voices. That’s really what I wanted to do with this conference. And, I feel really, really happy for what we’ve done here.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Maybe it’s just me. I know it’s not only me. But I just think this concept of continually working on ourselves, of continually asking, “Where do I need to heal, so that I can better hear stories that I don’t want to hear? What are the stories that I’ve never been exposed to because hearing them would enrich my life?” I mean, to continually be working on myself is full of curiosity and creativity and play – which are my favorite things – that feels exciting to me knowing I’ll never know at all. That I’m never going to be the expert on anything, really. I mean, ever. I think so many people are like, “But I don’t want to do that.”I want to offer, “But there’s so many wonderful, incredible things that you can discover when you step in and lean into that curiosity of, ‘What don’t I know?’” I mean, it might be uncomfortable. Sure. But it’s a heck of a lot better than feeling stuck and bored.

Amy Jo Goddard: Exactly. I mean, I think… Yeah. Bored is the answer. It’s just like, “Oh. If you know everything, that’s not exciting. That’s not exciting. What’s exciting about that?” “Oh, great. You get to be right. You get to be the one that knows all.” I mean, it’s just like is that what we’re aspiring to? I don’t think that’s what we’re aspiring. 

Dawn Serra: I hope not. 

Amy Jo Goddard: The work is never done. The arrivals never happened. You know what I mean? It’s just like there’s always more. That’s always what I’ve said about sexuality. Part of what makes sexuality so exciting is that there’s always more to learn. I’ve been studying sexuality and teaching about it for nearly 25 years. Really, I can’t believe I can say that about anything. But yes, I’m that old, folks. I’ve been doing this work really long time. There’s always more that I’m learning. There’s always more. So I just say that to say, no matter who you are, there’s more. You can have all the degrees you need to have or want to have and there’s still more. So really, that is what is dynamic and exciting about sexuality. 

And then when we can be in these conversations where it gets us excited and we’re creating intimacy and connection with other people because we’re learning from each other, we’re hearing each other in a new way, that’s beautiful. That’s really, I think, at the end of the day what we want. We want that connection. We want that intimacy and the way that we’re doing a lot of our movements and a lot of the social change that we’re working towards, it puts us in isolation. I would say that is a big thing I’m really looking at right now. And also entrepreneurship. It’s just by nature, this solopreneur life that puts us in this very isolated place where we’re not talking to others or we’re just in our own little bubble of what we’re doing. It’s not satisfying. I think a lot of people are starting to see that and are wanting something different.

Dawn Serra: Yes. I just want to offer that to people who want to find some of that curiosity, that connection, that intimacy with the people in their lives, whether it’s friends or sexual partners or whoever – family. I mean, to watch the talks that you’re about to put out into the world, to sit there and hear Jaclyn Friedman talk about fauxpowerment and to be able to turn to someone you love and say, “When’s the time when you felt like you were performing empowerment, but afterwards felt like, ‘Wow. I really didn’t actually want to do that.’” Or, to watch the panel around gynecology and to be able to ask a friend like, “What would it be like if your practitioner said, ‘Hey. Do you want to swab your own cervix?’” 

Amy Jo Goddard: I know right. 

Dawn Serra: Right. I mean, can you imagine? That story is amazing. It gives me chills. As a survivor, it gives me this feeling of, “Maybe I can feel more empowered when I go in for my pap smear to find a provider who’s like, ‘Hey. Why don’t you do this yourself? I’ll show you how. I don’t even have to touch you.’” 

Speaking of having autonomy and power during a gynecology appointment, I happen to have a little clip of the midwife who I was just talking about who let her patient swab herself because that’s what she needed. So let’s hear Racha talking about what it could mean in healthcare to actually empower our patients.

Racha Tahani Lawler: I don’t even touch my clients until we’ve thoroughly disseminated what all led them to sitting even in my office. And then like Kimberly said, once we’re in the exam room, it’s pretty much whatever they want and how they want it. I remember the first time I had a client know that if they wanted, they could skip the speculum and literally just swab themselves standing. They put their foot on the breastfeeding stool and just swab themselves because that felt safe to them, that felt empowering to them and they had never had a provider offer that as an option. They had their very specific reasons for why they needed that particular type of care. As Kimberly said, same thing in birthing, I’ve had people call me from the hospital, have my answering service, put them through and say, I know you don’t know us, but things are not going well at the hospital. Can we come to your birth center? – when I had a birth center – and I’m like, “Yeah. Have the hospital fax me your records, I’ll meet you at the birth center.” I mean, literally come to my birth center six centimeters, because they were just like, “We’re not doing that. We’re not doing that.” I was in a place where I could receive them. I’ve always operated from that space. 

More providers, more healthcare providers need to show up and meet people where they’re at, instead of constantly pushing their own agenda. People know their bodies. They’ve been in their bodies their entire lives. The time that we spend with them, doctors – five-minute appointments, nurse practitioners – maybe ten-minute appointments, midwives, even midwives – 45 minutes to an hour visits. We still don’t know that person better than they know their body. It’s our responsibility to meet them where they’re at and if they’re telling us something, to honor it.

Dawn Serra: That was Racha Tahani Lawler, who’s known as Crimson Fig Midwife, speaking with Amy Jo Goddard and Kimberly Ann Johnson from the “Sex, Power, and Trauma in Gynecology, Birth, and Motherhood” Panel. It is one of the most incredible panels that’s happening at this conference. If you want to hear more about being empowered in gynecology and what is possible, you so want to check that out. Anyway, back to me and Amy Jo totally geeking out. 

I mean, to be able to have conversations around that is fantastic and juicy and wonderful and like, “Let’s watch these conversations together.” Then ask each other really incredible questions. We’re going to find out so many things about each other we never even knew through these free conversations that you’re offering. I mean, to me, that’s just literally ecstatic.

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. No. I mean, to me, that’s the best case scenario. I mean, I would love if women’s groups and activist groups and families and just best friends, BFFS would just do that together and have conversations about what they’re seeing, That would make me– Nothing would make me happier. Nothing would make me happier than if you chose every… Even if you’re working during the day and you can’t do everything during the day, all of our evening talks all week, next week, that you set aside that time at 5pm Pacific or 8pm Eastern with somebody else to say, “Let’s watch this together,” even if you’re not in the same room, to be watching from wherever you are and to be in dialogue about it and conversation about it. 

That’s like Betty Martin talking about what really is consent and all the nuance she talks about. Carol Queen talking about what it really means to be sex positive and are anti-erotic, eroticphobic culture. Oh, my God. The conversation on eroticphobia was so good. And Meg-John Barker talking about how we need to stop really addressing the approach of LGBTQ and start talking about gender relationship and sexual diversity. That’s a radical conversation. It’s a radical shift and yet, it’s so satisfying if we really think about what that would mean. And listening to a native leader like Beverly Little Thunder, who came out in her community and faced a lot of homophobia, who faced death threats and was told to leave her native community and go do ceremony for her own kind. She started the first women Sundance and, to my knowledge, the only one that’s currently happening in the United States on Turtle Island, I mean, these are amazing stories and these are people and conversations we don’t get to hear often enough. I would love it if that happened, if people really consciously approach the coming week and the conference as a place where they want to create dialogue in your lives, in your communities, in your families. Oh. That will make me so happy.

Dawn Serra: Oh, my God. That would be amazing. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Do it!

Both: Do it!

Amy Jo Goddard: And engage men. Get men to do this with you. Oh, my gosh! If there’s anything that could move the needle forward, bring men into these conversations. Men will learn so much from this. We all have a lot to learn, but… Wow. I would love to see that.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Me too! That would be– Oh, my God! That’ll be awesome.

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. Oh! We’re going to have a live workshop on remembering and reimagining matriarchal culture with Kristin Wilson, which I’m super excited about. She’s a brilliant teacher. I’ve had her on many of the events that I have hosted she’s been a part of. She is really phenomenal. Really getting to see– Not just talking about matriarchy like, “Oh. Yeah. That’s something that happened.” Really talking about what are the tenants of matriarchal culture. How can we start to bring some of those characteristics into the communities that we’re in. There are some community communities that do that well. So really, come and learn from her about what that looks like. There’s even ways you can bring that into your families in ways that are going to be beneficial to everyone in your family, including the men and the boys. 

Dawn Serra: Yes. Oh, my God. Well, for those who want to tune in, how can they sign up for the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference?”

Amy Jo Goddard: It’s really easy. amyjogoddard.com/sexpowerleadership. So Amy Jo Goddard dot com. No E on the Jo. A-M-Y-J-O-G-O-D-D-A-R-D dot com Sex Power Leadership.

Dawn Serra: Yay! Well, I am speaking on one of the panels alongside–

Amy Jo Goddard: Yeah. You are. Oh, my God. Your panel. We haven’t even mentioned your panel. Talk about it.

Dawn Serra: The talk was all about accessibility in the sexual liberation movement. I want to name that Jeanine Staples, who’s on the panel with me, Chris Donaghue and Robin Wilson-Beattie. Man, Jeanine brought it. Jeanine had some really beautiful things to say about just accessibility inside of sexual liberation. We talked about disability and fat bodies and also recognizing where we’re still learning. I know a part of what I talked about at the panel was that discomfort I had to confront when I realized I was being super transphobic and like the licking of the wounds that I had to do and then coming out the other side of that with this whole new clarity and just naming. Of course, we’re ableist and transphobic and fatphobic. The culture teaches us to be that way. But it’s on us to start undoing that. And so just really rich discussions around men and disability and fat bodies and race, of course. So, yeah. People totally tune in for that. I would love it. I will, of course, have links on the show notes and at dawnserra.com, so you can sign up for the conference. Amy Jo, how can people also follow you online and see some of those awesome memes you’re posting?

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh. Yeah. On Instagram. I’m @sexualempowerment. I’m @AmyJoGoddard on Twitter and Facebook. Those are the places to find me. And yeah, there’s a Facebook group for the conference. We’re just starting to get that conversation happening. I would love to see you there. So come join the Facebook group and be a part of the conversation because this isn’t just about watch passively, watch the talks and then move on. I mean, this is about we’re really going to engage the dialogue and go deeper. I mean, I’m really seeing this as the 201-301 class. It needs to happen. Now, let’s have some deeper conversation about the nuance of all of these issues. 

Dawn Serra: Oh. So good.

Amy Jo Goddard: Yes. Sex, Power, & Leadership Con is the group on Facebook. Yeah.

Dawn Serra: Whoo. Okay. Well, come join the Facebook group. Talk to us. We’re both in there. Of course, sign up for the conference. There’s going to be a link you can click if you just tap you a little show notes. Amy, Jo, thank you so much for coming here and chatting with all of us. This was so exciting. I cannot wait for everyone to see this. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Oh, my God. It’s so good. I just want the whole world to see it. So yeah, thank you. 

Dawn Serra: You’re welcome. 

Amy Jo Goddard: Beautiful. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Everybody who tuned in, if you have questions or comments head to dawnserra.com. There’s a contact form there. Of course, you can submit anonymously. Pop over to join the “Sex, Power, and Leadership Conference,” both on Facebook and the conference itself. If you need anything else for me, you can hit me up on Twitter at @Dawn_Serra. Same handle over on Instagram. I will talk to you next week. Bye!