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Are you joining us for the 3rd annual Explore More Summit? It kicks off April 23, 2018 and it’s free and online. Grab your spot now at exploremoresummit.com.
We did it. We did a live recording of the show with about a dozen of you joining in the fun. So, this is your chance to not only hear me fielding questions live, on the spot, but you’ll also hear other people’s thoughts and perspectives, too.
I had a blast and I hope we do it again soon.
So what did we chat about?
DL has found that pleasure, sex, and embodiment aren’t really talked about in the context of sobriety. How do they regain sensation? Why isn’t anyone talking about this? On the call, I offered a few resources for DL, but afterwards, I reached out to my networks and asked for more. Here’s a smattering of what they offered:
– I’d start asking questions about the numbness, if they feel anything in their body, if they feel something but it isn’t pleasure (pain, discomfort, etc.), what they felt on alcohol that worked for them and what they didn’t feel then that worked for them. It may be that there’s a reason they’re checking out of their body, or it may be that they haven’t found other avenues of relaxing their inhibitions, muscles, or both that works for them while supporting their recovery goals. My short list would be to check for trauma, chronic pain, dysphoria as common reasons for that numbness, but to keep an open mind to other possibilities.
– Hey Dawn! I want to ditto what Alex said, and also add in that substance abuse recovery requires relearning our selves, and perhaps using similar techniques that we’d use with people who are pre-orgasmic or who have had injuries or illnesses that have affected how their bodies feel may be useful. In particular, the reminder that booze is something that overcomes inhibitions and that their pacing and engagement would likely need to shift and “re-find” a new norm. I’m happy to do a call with you (or them) gratis if you feel that it would help.
– I work in treatment centers around L.A. to bring sex and sexuality into the treatment programs, specifically for reasons that Sarah mentioned. It’s like starting from scratch, learning who they are, what they like, what matters to them, etc. without substances involved. This person’s experience is super-common…there’s often either a fear of “too much” sexual feeling/desire (I am bad) or a total disconnect/numbness (I am broken). In addition to the great feedback here, I’d also recommend some mind/body connection work that doesn’t rely on thinking or “figuring it out.” My partner and I use breathwork with some clients for this…very effective trauma work that doesn’t rely on talking or remembering. (And it gives the brain a much-needed break.)
Emily has trouble with her body and specifically her belly. How can she heal that relationship because it’s impacting how she experiences sex with her boyfriend.
Another participant asked how we can grapple with the fact that as our definition of sex expands, so much our definition for sexual assault. How do we reconcile these things and hold space for them?
One listener needs help with communication. She is constantly walking on eggshells with her partner to avoid another fight or blow-up. How can they get better at communicating about the tough stuff?
And finally, someone wrote in asking about having a fantasy about teaching a bunch of male virgins how to be expert lovers. They think it’s a fetish, and they’re worried it’s a problematic one. We roll around in this and it’s pure delight.
Follow Dawn is on Instagram.
About Dawn Serra
Dawn Serra is a therapeutic Body Trust coach and pleasure advocate. As a white, cis, middle class, queer, fat, survivor, Dawn’s work is a fiercely compassionate invitation for each of us to deepen our relationships with our bodies and our pleasure as an antidote to the trauma, disconnection, and isolation so many of us feel. Your pleasure matters. Your body is wise. Dawn’s work is all about creating spaces and places for you to explore what that means on your terms. To learn more, visit dawnserra.com or follow Dawn on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: This episode is brought to you by the online free conference, Explore More, which kicks off April 23rd. Grab your spot now! We ask questions like what happens when you’re in relationship with a cis dude and you realize your gender queer? How do you navigate that conversation? Here’s a sneak peek of Mia Little, adult performer, sharing their story.
Mia Little: I think I definitely grew into it because for a long time… I remember the day that I was just like, “Oh. I’m gender queer,” or “I might be gender queer. What if I’m this?” I have a bit of a panic because I’m in a relationship with a cis man, who identifies as heterosexual. I’m just like this devouring monster who wants to eat the world. It’s like, “Oh. No! What if this person isn’t able to deal with the fact that I may be a gender queer person?” I’m still grappling and figuring out what words I want to use because I understand there’s a spectrum. And also, I am very sensitive about holding space, especially when it comes to uplifting marginalized voices and all that. So gender queer feels right. But what I was really worried about how will that be held by my very, very heterosexual partner, I’m like, “What does that mean? What if I’m this?” My partner was like, “I’ve seen what sweatpants you wear. It doesn’t matter. I love you.” It’s like, “Oh. Okay. That helps.”
Dawn Serra: If you want to grab your spot for the Explore More Summit head to exploremoresummit.com. There are going to be dozens of talks available for free over the course of ten days. We are going to be grappling with questions like gender and being in relationship, the feelings that we feel and so many other rich things. So join us – exploremoresummit.com.
You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!
Dawn Serra: This week’s episode is the live recording from our celebration of 200 episodes. So you’re not only going to hear me, but you’re going to hear other people asking me questions live and offering their thoughts and feelings about the questions that come up. I had a lot of fun recording this. I think I’m probably going to do it with a little bit more regularity. Because it was really great to hear people asking questions in real time, but also offering each other support.
Patreon supporters, you’re going to get something that no one else in the world, literally, no one else is going to get. If you support the show at $3 or more at patreon.com/sgrpodcast, you get weekly bonuses. This week’s bonus is something super special. Therapist Quinn Gee, who is one of the speakers at this year’s Explore More Summit, has some really, really, really rich thoughts around the coming out process and how it actually harms the most marginalized. About halfway through this episode, you’ll hear a little tease from her full summit talk. But Patreon supporters, you’re actually going to get an exclusive 15-20 minute clip of our talk. It is one of the funniest stories from the entire summit and it has to do with strap ons. So if you support the show at $3 or above, you get to hear that content almost a month before anybody else gets to hear it. Again, it is a hysterical story about Quinn and strap ons. But, yeah. You’ll hear a little bit more from Quinn about coming out halfway through the episode. Without further ado, here was our live celebration episode.
Dawn Serra: To everybody who’s listening, you are listening to the live taping of our celebratory Sex Gets Real episode. This is celebrating the 200th episode of Sex Gets Real. We’re about to cross that four million download mark. We’re pre-celebrating because I’m confident we will cross it. If we don’t, it’s because podcasts everywhere died. I don’t think that’ll happen. We’ll cross four million super soon. There’s a whole bunch of amazing folks here with me tonight. You will probably hear some of their voices at some point. And we will get started. I want to open it up to the people who are actually here with me and find out what kinds of questions that you have for me that you’d like me to answer and/or open up to the group.
DL: Hi. So my name is DL and I live in Western Massachusetts. My question is, I stopped drinking a little over a year ago. Since I was– I mean, since I was really young, I would say preteen is when I started drinking. So the vast majority of my sex life was influenced by drinking culture at large, but also specifically, for me, I identify as someone with a drinking problem and substance use problem. I’m no longer drinking. I’ve noticed that my body is different when it’s being touched. Whether that’s traumas probably involved in that too, as I am a sexual assault survivor. But I guess what I don’t hear a lot, no matter what sex educator I’m following, I don’t hear too much about the impact that drinking has on folks. Not even just emotionally, but actually on a physical level. Like what substance use does to our pleasure centers and our ability to feel things in our body after intense, severe abuse of it.
Because what I’ve noticed is that my body goes numb if I’m touched in certain ways, which I know is partially a trauma response, but also, just that I don’t have the same energy anymore. It’s different, which is fine. It’s fine that it’s different. But I’m not finding the resources out there to help me navigate the difference, like the discrepancy of I used to drink and be way more wet or you know. TMI but, yeah. There’s just like my body just responds differently and I’m not able to feel pleasure as quickly or as intensely anymore. A lot of sobriety groups and whether it’s AA or alternative methods of sobriety, even those groups aren’t really talking about sexuality that much. I feel like, for me, what I witness is that it’s like a lot of shame around deviants. Okay. I’ll probably end it there. But essentially, I’m just wondering if you have any resources or advice.
Dawn Serra: Well, thank you for going first and for sharing your question with all of us. I appreciate the courage that that took in the vulnerability as well. So I will start by just asking anybody listening or who’s here, have you seen any resources in this space? Or, have any experiences that you’d like to share before I weigh in using head nods? No. Alright.
So I have several thoughts. The first is, I think part of the reason you don’t see a lot of resources about this is because it’s probably not being studied by very many people. When people aren’t studying it, then people don’t usually talk about it. Doctors don’t even really understand orgasm in just the most typical situations as it is. Not to say that there aren’t resources out there. But a couple of thoughts that I have. One, I would love to reach out to some of my networks and see if anybody’s actually talking about this intersection because I know a couple of people who are in recovery and a couple of the networks that I’m in. So I’d love to talk to them, and then just share resources on the Sex Gets Real page or something for you. Because I don’t have anything off at the top of my head.
Dawn Serra: The second thought that I have is around your body going numb and the energy feeling different. The numbness, I think, is really interesting. I’m wondering if there’s some dissociation happening and if you’ve done any work around mindfulness or somatic practices. Have you done anything in that realm?
DL: No. Not really. Like the type of therapy that folks do? Is that what you’re talking about?
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
DL: No. What is it? EM–
Dawn Serra: EMDR?
DL: That’s suggested to me. I don’t really have the money to get that therapy right now, to even have a therapist at the moment. That is on my mind. But I’m trying to struggle along without it, without having that resource.
Dawn Serra: I would recommend a couple of things just around embodiment. Because a lot of what I’m hearing is there’s been a disconnect in the way that your body and your mind communicate for a really long time. They’ve had a lot of assistance with other substances or experiences. So getting your body and your mind to communicate, one, without substances and, two, when you’ve got trauma, is just going to take some time. But I also think that if you have some practices around mindfulness, embodiment, somatic experiences, that could be really, really interesting in just helping to map new ways to experience pleasure in your body. That’s a process that I’m personally going through right now with a somatic therapists and it takes a really long time.
That said, there are some amazing books out there that if therapy is not in the budget, the library will probably have books by Peter Levine. He’s got a number of books that are all about somatic healing. Also, Bessel van der Kolk’s book, “The Body Keeps the Score.” That’s all about the ways that body holds on to trauma and PTSD. But the second half of the book has tremendous resources around EMDR therapy, somatic therapy and different ways that people are doing somatic work. That might send you down some paths where you could get some trainings and some videos online. I know Peter Levine has a couple of sessions online that you can just watch to start getting a sense of it.
Dawn Serra: And then there’s this really awesome somatic therapist that I would recommend checking out named Sage Hayes. It’s H-A-Y-E-S. Sage is the super rad, queer somatic therapist that also does a lot of body-based therapies. They have this beautiful Facebook page called Embodied Liberation. They also have a blog. So that might be a way to just check out resources and learn little tidbits along the way that you might be able to check out.
I’m also thinking the shame around the deviance, absolutely, is probably why you’re hearing a lot of silence around this. People are trying to probably do right by themselves and, unfortunately, thinking that sex and pleasure means that you don’t have access to that. But I really think that oftentimes, we create either blocks or neural pathways that don’t lead to our pleasure. So whether it’s a trauma response and dissociation or we even see this with people who masturbate really intensely in one specific way. Then when they try to masturbate or experience pleasures in other ways, they have a really difficult time getting off. It’s because their body just doesn’t know how to deal with pleasure that way.
Dawn Serra: I think understanding it’s probably going to take time. It’s been a year, which is great. But it might take a couple of years of just slowly reintegrating with the body and understanding it might be different and finding ways to celebrate the different. But I would definitely recommend checking out as many resources as you can around somatic experiences and embodied experiences.
Tantra can be really good for that, too. If you want to check out Barbara Carrellas’ “Urban Tantra,” she has all kinds of awesome exercises, like step by step exercises, in that book around breath work and moving pleasure through your entire body and having breathgasms and crygasms and all kinds of different ways of just moving pleasure through your body using tantra techniques. So that might be an interesting place to explore too, because it’s going to be new. It might be a way to just be like, “Woah. I have never done pleasure this way.” So this could feel really fun, instead of trying to recapture what was. But I’ll definitely reach out to my networks about the resources and as I get those, I’ll either mention it on a future episode or tweet about it. Something like that. Because I would love to find more for you.
DL: Thanks.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Sure. So in the chat – I’m not sure where you live – my therapist works on a sliding scale. So that might be an option that is being offered. Yeah. Finding a sliding scale person, if not now, then maybe down the road, for sure. Yeah. Thank you for that suggestion. Okay. Anybody else have questions that they want to throw at me? Hi! Okay.
Emily: I’m Emily. I’m from New Jersey. I’m living with body issues. I’m a curvy girl. The only problem that I have is my stomach. Everything else about me, I love. The only thing I have is just my stomach. I can’t seem to get past that. Everything else– It’s hard for me to speak up because I’m now seeing my boyfriend of a year and a month. He’s very touchy feely and that’s a little uncomfortable for me. Knowing that the people in my job would love to interject their voice about me and my body and that’s hard for me. I don’t know how to live and feel comfortable in my own skin. Okay. It’s hard for me to even talk about it because even with my dad, he pokes at me like, “Haha! You’re a big girl” or like… I can’t. I can’t.
Dawn Serra: Well, thank you for sharing that. I know sometimes words around stuff like that can be really hard to find. So I appreciate that you shared what you did. That’s a feeling that I know I have had more than once in my life. Just today I was sharing a story about someone who had commented on my body years ago. You know, at the time, when the person commented on my body, it crushed me. It totally crushed me. I was not in a place where I felt comfortable with people acknowledging that my body looked the way that it was. I didn’t want people acknowledging my stomach or other parts of me. So that is a feeling I know well.
I think there’s a couple of different ways that you can start exploring the space of feeling a little bit more comfortable. If anybody who’s on the call has experienced something similar and you want to share something in the chat or ask any questions or even take yourself off mute and offer any advice, please do share or ask anything that you might have for Emily.
Dawn Serra: My first question is, Emily, for you, are you following any folks on social media that posts lots of pictures of fat bellies being super badass?
Emily: Currently, no. I am getting in the process of looking for one. But currently, no.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. That has been super helpful for me in that I’ve filled my Instagram full of people who are so proud of their big bellies that hang over their pants or hang over their undies and they’re just out there in the bikini and rocking a crop top. At first, because I had so many issues about my tummy because I have a big tummy too, it was really uncomfortable for me to see people being okay with their tummies. I was just like, “Holy fuck. If I ever got seen like that, I would want to die.” It was painful and terrifying and awful.
But then I found that over time, as I watched these people just like, “I am rocking my bikini and you can’t even see my bottoms because my tummy is so big,” and like, “Who cares? Look at it from the back.” They were just being so unapologetic and I was seeing it all the time, it started to become normal. I actually just had this experience, maybe three weeks ago, where I saw myself naked in a mirror. Instead of having my normal feeling that I’ve had for most of my life of, “Oh, God. If I could get rid of this tummy, I would feel so much better.” Then I would catch myself thinking, “My tummy. I love my stomach. It’s a part of me, even if we have a complicated history.” But I looked at myself in the mirror and actually was like, “Cool.” I had never had that experience. I turned 40 this year and I have never had that experience in my lifetime about my stomach. To have that completely neutral, cool. It was so shocking in that moment because I had never felt that before.
Dawn Serra: I just want to offer it takes some time to start untelling a lot of those stories because everything around us is constantly reinforcing. To have a tummy is like the worst thing. If you’ve got a big belly, “Flatten your abs in six weeks” and “Ten exercises to bikini body.” I mean, it’s just effing everywhere. So fuck all of that. But filling my Instagram feed and my Twitter feed with fat activists who are just like, “Look at my tummy!” trained my brain to see these people are wanted and loved and sexualized and proud and “Maybe, someday, I can start feeling that way, too.”
But it’s made even harder when you have people making comments about your body, which I’m hearing you do, like coworkers and your dad. That can be a really complicated place because what needs to happen, whether or not that something you’re able to do now are two different things. But what needs to happen is a really firm boundary of, “It’s not okay for you to comment about my body and it makes me feel uncomfortable. If you do it again, then unfortunately, I’m going to leave. At some point, hopefully, you’ll learn that commenting about my body just isn’t okay. But I’ll excuse myself from a conversation because this isn’t for you to comment on. I’m struggling right now.”
Dawn Serra: But it’s hard to find our voice and to say those things with people that we have professional relationships with or family relationships with that come with all kinds of other complications. I think you need to just sit with it and ask, what kinds of boundaries do I feel comfortable setting and doing so, in just a very firm, unapologetic way? When that’s not possible, how can I just remove myself from the situation – changing the subject, slipping away to the bathroom to get you some air, maybe pulling up your Instagram and looking at a whole bunch of fat tummies just to get a little bit of solidarity before you walk back out?
But our lives are really complicated. So ideally, it’s, “Hey. I need to set a boundary about this because I’m struggling and it hurts. I’d like you to not do this anymore and that people respect it.” But that’s clean and that’s not how human beings are. I think just ask yourself, what do I need to care for me in those moments if I can’t set that boundary or if I try and it’s not respected. Whether it’s going and walking away or calling for backup or pretending you have a phone call or whatever it is, just know that you don’t deserve to have your body commented on that way. So the more that you can just remember that and recite like, “I don’t deserve this. This isn’t theirs to comment on. I can’t say anything about it right now, but when I get home, I’m going to punch the shit out of my pillow and be angry because it’s not fair.”
Dawn Serra: So let yourself have the feelings and do whatever you need to do to survive that moment. And then I would recommend just trying to find lots of body– Adipositivity, which I’ll link to when this episode airs, if you haven’t found it, Adipositivity changed my life. Seeing all of these pictures of naked people being naked on purpose in their fat bodies, thousands of pictures by Substantia Jones of these fat bodies and just being like, “Holy crap! So many people have bodies like mine or even bigger and they’re just like be naked for the world to see, was so freeing.” But it took a lot of time.
I just want you to know, you’re not alone. I have so felt that. In the past, when I had a lover try to touch my belly, I would recoil. Like, “Don’t touch me there because it disgusts me. You can’t possibly love me for this.” And then having just– It took years of slowly, slowly, slowly being in community. But know the world is a pretty hard place around that kind of stuff. So it’s not anything to do with you and it’s all the messages around us. Was that a little bit helpful?
Emily: Yeah. It’s definitely helpful. Yeah. It’s hard to be intimate with him and not feel like I need to hide a part of me just so I can enjoy it.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. And there’s nothing wrong with needing to hide it. I did that for years. If what you need is to be close to someone and to feel loved and to have pleasure and in order to do that, you need to cover up for a little while or have the lights low or wear a really super cute piece of lingerie that covers the parts that you don’t like, then do that. The world’s trained you to not like this part of yourself and you still get to enjoy pleasure and you still get to enjoy sex and you still get to enjoy being in this relationship with whoever you’re around. So whatever you need to do now, to enjoy that a little more, do the thing. Then just know longer term, “I’m going to start reading these fat positive books or looking at these fat positive Instagrams,” or doing whatever it is that will help you to start unlearning that, but survive now and give yourself access to that pleasure. So if that means candles only and a sheet around you or something like that, then do what you have to do to get through it. Don’t force yourself to try and do something that just makes you feel even more scared or alone or you don’t deserve to be touched. Cover it up and then bounce around and do whatever else feels good. Because you deserve it. So, yeah. Be kind to yourself and you’re not alone. Thank you so much for sharing.
Someone in the chat just offered, “When I work with body positivity, I also work in making peace through self-pleasure. When you’re masturbating, try to find the touches that feel good and parts that you cover up with other people. That can be really challenging, but it can be worth a try.” What happens when you start talking to your tummy? What if you were to have a conversation with your tummy around, “I have really complicated feelings about you. I don’t know if I can let people see you right now. But I’m trying,” and see how that feels. We have to get creative in acknowledging the whole of our body. So thank you for sharing that in the chat.
Dawn Serra: Thank you, Emily, for sharing your question. I know literally thousands of people who listen to this are going to be right there with you in those feels and right there with you with the question. So I appreciate it. If anybody else has any thoughts or questions, pop them in the chat. Oh. I see another question coming in. Thank you so much, Emily. I really appreciate you being here and sharing this. If I think of any other resources or if you have follow up questions, ping me on social media. Also, be sure to just check my Instagram for who I follow because I literally follow hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of fat, awesome people who are just like, “Look at my belly.” So just go follow right down the line over there.
Emily: Okay.
Dawn Serra: Thank you. Okay. So there’s a question that came in in the chat. Also, somebody said they found the body is not an apology to be an amazing resource. Yes. Absolutely. I have a question that requires a content warning for sexual assault. Is that all right? Not sure if it’s the right question for this episode, but I can ask it and you can pass it on. Yes. Absolutely. So content warning for sexual assault. We are naming that. If anybody needs to step away or not listen, please care for yourself however you need to. And I would love to know what the question is.
Alright. As a sex educator, my conceptions of “sex,” have expanded far beyond penis and vagina penetration, I think back of sexual encounters that I had as a team, which at the time, I would never have thought of as sex, but now, I definitely do. With expanded definitions of sex, I wonder about words like rape and sexual assault in the way that definitions of those words could or should potentially change as well. It’s a scary and confusing thought. I’m not even sure how useful the conversation is. Have you thought about this? And in this context, when is defining and redefining useful and when is it not?
Dawn Serra: Ooh. That’s really juicy. Yeah. I think that what happens for me around these conversations – this is a really, really good question – is what gets expanded more between those two words is sexual assault. So for me, rape is usually some type of forced penetration. Something’s going in a body. Now, you can absolutely rape a mouth or rape a butt or whatever hole there is. I think what it gets expanded, for me, is the sexual assault realm. So if we’re talking about breasts being touched or bodies being pressed together and those things count as sex because they absolutely do for some people. Or, masturbation, which absolutely a sex too, then to do those things without people’s consent is sexual assault. What I’ve found is that that has expanded tremendously as far as what happens when we’re wielding our power and using it over others or trying to take autonomy away. There’s a lot more– When sex is broader, then opportunities for harm and abuse, obviously, are much broader.
Now, a lot of people don’t see it that way, because they don’t think certain acts are sex and they might be sex to some people and not others. So it becomes a really tough gray space. I think that’s a place where we don’t yet have very good resources or dialogues in our culture. Because for a lot of people sex is going to be something that many other people would never in a million years consider sex. And so how do we then start bridging those gaps and having the nuanced conversations because inevitably feelings are going to be really, really, really big when we’re in this space.
Dawn Serra: I certainly don’t have answers. Just because I think I can’t possibly know everybody else’s definitions. But I think just asking the question and letting it be there and the really uncomfortable conversations that might come out of that is an important one. It changes a lot of things when we start talking about access to other people’s bodies and what types of power we wield. There’s a big opportunity for, not only assault in actual intended harm, but also unintended harm and making mistakes. And then how do we make room for genuine mistakes that do cause harm without malicious intent? It’s a great, big, messy ball.
I think that’s one of the reasons why when we hear people talk about consent, it’s often so binary. Here’s the yeses and here’s the nos and anything in the middle just counts as a no. Because people are scared of that messy, messy state. They don’t know how to navigate it. So instead of navigating it, it just becomes like, “Well, everything goes under this category.” But I think we miss a lot that way. I’m not sure if I totally makes a lot of sense. Thank you so much. You’re so welcome. Thank you for just naming that. Because I think that’s something that doesn’t get named a lot. Generally, when we’re talking about sexual assault and rape, the conversation tends to go back to our more narrow definitions of sex. You’re right. When there’s a thousand ways to have sex and not just this kind, then there’s a thousand different ways that someone could absolutely manipulate and use power over another that is not from a place of mutual enjoyment. So, yeah. Big, ugly, messy space that needs more conversation.
Dawn Serra: That was slightly terrifying to ask, but I really appreciate your validation of the question. Yeah. Absolutely. Thank you for being brave. Yay. I love the question, too. My brain is like, “Oh, God. Now, I’ve got to talk to a whole bunch of people about this.” I’m like suss out my thoughts and my feelings. This is a huge. That could be like ten blog posts just teasing that out and sussing that out. So thank you for the brain food. I like it.
Are you ready for another sneak peek from one of the talks at Explore More Summit 2018? Well, here is therapist Quinn Gee talking about her complicated feelings about the coming out process.
Quinn Gee: First of all, I have a complicated relationship with the process of coming out because straight people don’t have to come out. Cis people don’t have to come out. Why shouldn’t anybody else? You come out when it’s safe for you and when you want to. People don’t understand that coming out process is life long. Like when you go to a new job like, “Oh. I got to let them know I’m gay.”
And so that’s why I was joking. I say, “I don’t know if you know, but I’m black.” That’s my coming out thing. Like mocking it because it is so harmful to the people who have to do it. The problem is this idea that I have to let people know. I have to announce something, so people aren’t confused. I just don’t see how that’s helpful for you. I always tell them, “Okay. Who are you doing this for? Are you doing it because you feel this overwhelming need to just declare something and it’s important to you to be open? Or, are you doing it so that you can get ahead of the judgment and try to tailor the conversation? Because that will never happen.”
Dawn Serra: I would love to see each and every one of you at Explore More this year. It is free. It is online. It kicks off April 23rd. We are talking about things like coming out and navigating long term relationships and pleasure and bodies and diet culture and gender non-conformity and trans issues and emotional intelligence. Of course, all within the theme of play and curiosity. So please join us. Head to exploremoresummit.com for more. If you support on Patreon, patreon.com/sgrpodcast, you are about to get some yummy, hysterical, ear candy from Quinn Gee.
Back to the live episode. Alright. I am going to read one of the questions that came in. There was three questions that I received. So I want to make sure that I get to as many of them as I can. So the first one is pretty short because I only have one answer, but we’ll see if everybody here has anything. Somebody said, “I’ve researched a lot on ejaculating dildos and I’m highly interested. Do you have a suggestion? Have you tried any? I’m looking for one that will work without using a syringe and that works with a harness?”
Dawn Serra: This person’s looking for ejaculating dildos, of which there are many different kinds. I have never used one. I’ve always been intrigued, but I’ve never actually used one myself. So I turned to Sugarbutch, Sinclair Sexsmith, who I just interviewed last week, so their content was fresh in me and Alex’s minds. Sinclair recommends this ejaculating dildo called the Semenette, which we will have to forgive the name, but I’m going to post in the chat a link to Sugarbutch’s blog post about it.
The Semenette has some wins and some not so good things. It’s a pretty hard silicone, so it’s not like a soft, realistic silicone. If you’re looking for a softer feel for your dildo, this isn’t it. But it does have a base that’s harness ready and it does have a little pump so that you can ejaculate through it using the little pump on the bulb. Sinclair said that it’s one of the best ones that they’ve seen. Bad Dragon also has some ejaculating dildos, but I’ve heard mixed things about that. Coincidentally, you can also get a dildo that deposits alien eggs inside of you through Bad Dragon. So if you’re interested in that then they make that to check it out. But, yeah. If you’re looking for an ejaculating dildo, then Semenette, I think, is probably your best bet based on what I was able to find.
Dawn Serra: Okay. I got a question from somebody that was rather long. So just in the interest of getting through the entire question, I removed a handful of paragraphs. It’s still going to be a little bit long, but it’ll give us a little bit of backstory. And then I would love to hear your thoughts about it before I weigh in. So prep yourselves. “Hey, Dawn! Thanks for allowing me to be part of your special celebration episode. I feel very lucky to be able to take part in this. My question is about communication and a relationship in general, but also about respect. This is long. I’ve been in a relationship with the same man for a little over three and a half years with a breakup last year of about four to five months. When things are good between us, it’s amazing. Our issues have always come down to communication or a lack thereof. When it comes to tough conversations, the awkward topics, discussing finances, resolving big fights, sharing scary feelings, we really suck. We have no problems expressing our love for one another or talking about our hopes. My worry is we won’t have much of the future or the future that we want together, if we can’t stop walking on eggshells around the big stuff.
I’ve been doing a lot of self-reflection, learning and listening over the last year or so. I’m unlearning a ton of shit that I held very deeply within myself for most of my life and I’m noticing a lot more in the world that pisses me off. I’m getting better in expressing myself, but I’m not saying I’m perfect. He says he’s afraid to say things to me or bring up issues to me that may either cause a fight because it’s something he knows is a hot topic and/or cause a breakup. So he says he just keeps stuff to himself instead. This can be superficial stuff, as well as serious issues.
Dawn Serra: Our fights almost always end with him either hanging up on me, slamming the door and walking away without explanation. It happens 95% of the time and I hate it. It’s usually followed by a long silence. Recently, I’ve taken the not standing for the unexplained silences any longer on account of it triggered by anxiety. I don’t mind one bit if he needs some space after an argument to cool down or gather his thoughts and I personally love having my own space. But explaining it in a respectful manner, instead of just hanging up or slamming the door is something that I’ve asked for many times.
I want us to have deeper conversations to help each other grow, to truly support each other in ways that are meaningful, to talk about all the things and to not feel like we have to do the egg shell thing around fights. I want all those things and yet, I still have a list of notes on my phone from the last fight we had that I haven’t been able to bring up. I feel like he’s actively choosing a lot of the time to not do the things I asked for. But am I also making choices that are leading to our demise? Why can’t I just say the things?
Dawn Serra: I love him dearly, and I absolutely envision my life with him. I sometimes feel choked like I don’t have a voice. That’s not the person I see myself as. I’d love to see a therapist, but I have no idea how to bring it up. I have one and she’s amazing, but just not a couples therapist. The next step in the relationship is expected to be me moving out to where he is. We’ve talked about it a lot. We used to share listings back and forth. But I had to put a pause on that because I know we have bigger issues to iron out for I’m ready to sell my house, rebuild my business in a new town and make that big move. I’ve come to realize lately how much emotional labor I’m doing and have done in this relationship. So what’s your take on all this? Am I just addicted to the relationship and to him? Is it fear? I feel like the foundation of us is so shaky, but I’m terrified to move.” For those of you listening, what thoughts, experiences or advice would you like to share before I weigh in?
Listener 1: In the relationships that we choose, I think that, for some people, yes, communication is the privilege choice. For me, it’s very important. I usually work into putting people into communicating, putting couples into communicating. But this– I don’t know the name of this person. This person has to, first of all, decide what is important for this person in the relationship. I think that this is the most important part. Because if the most important is to have this way of showing love that they have, it’s also a legitimate choice. But if it’s not and it seems that, from the email, it’s getting more and more complicated to conduct this just by songs of love, just by–
There are some strategy, when together, that they can use like asking for timeout before things escalate. This usually works before things escalate. And create a sign, create a funny word so that it’s something that unblocks, something that it’s funny for both of you and that you have one little secret, that it’s funny for those… Those little funny… When things start to escalate, you say that word or you do that sign that goes to that space and you know that it’s a time to cool off.
Listener 1: But first, this person has to decide if it’s a relationship with communication. And where things like finances and serious things… Because this can be serious and this can be shared or this can be unshared and can be a part of each life. Each person has their own serious issues. Decide the format of the relationship. What is important? Then try to create small strategies or decide if you want to stay or not in this relationship.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I really– I totally agree. I love starting with figuring out what’s important to you and where are you willing to have to do some work? Because inevitably, in relationships, we have to work on something. But is this a place where you want to continue doing labor? If not, that’s super okay. I think it’s really interesting that most people will say, “We’re really good communicators. It’s just when we disagree about something or we have a fight, that’s not so good.” Most of us are really great communicators when things are easy. So it’s really, really the test of when we’re having a big feelings day or when we’re having a disagreement around something, how are we communicating?
There’s no right way to do conflict. The Gottman Institute has found that if people have similar conflict styles, then relationships can thrive, even when the conflict looks unhealthy to everyone else. So if you have two people who are conflict-avoidant, both avoiding and they’re happy with the avoiding, they can actually be in a super healthy relationship. If you have two people who love conflict and they’ll have screaming and they love throwing things, getting really angry, but they both communicate that way and it feels good to them, that can actually be a really healthy conflict style for those two people.
Dawn Serra: It can be really challenging then, when you have people with different conflict styles, trying to then bridge that gap. If you have someone who wants to avoid and someone who loves getting in your face, that’s going to be a really difficult place to try and find a way to meet in the middle. So I think it’s really interesting that this person’s partner is the kind of person who escalates up, and then has to shut things down really quickly. I think what else is interesting is that there have been multiple requests to not slam down the phone, don’t stomp out of the room, this isn’t okay, and then it continues to happen. I think that’s interesting. I think that’s just something to pay attention to.
I really love the idea that you offered around the techniques of just like, “Hey. We’re starting to reach the boiling point and maybe we need a little break.” Dylan used to talk about how, with her and her ex-wife, one of the things that their therapist taught them to do is if they were starting to get into a conflict and one of them was starting to feel overstimulated, they would throw a Beanie Baby on the ground. They were just… There was a Beanie Baby they kept in a basket and they would like… The yelling would be happening or the feelings would be getting really high and they were about to say something they regretted, they would just be like, grab the Beanie Baby and you throw it on the ground and everybody stops. Then you just take your space. You take 15 or 20 minutes. Then come back together.
Dawn Serra: Alex and I will use the word tangerine. So we use that. Also, when we’re in social settings and we need to escape or we need to be saved from something. Like if we’re at a party and something terrible happens, it’s just like, “Hey. Have you had any tangerines lately?” Then that’s the cue of, “Let’s get out of here.” So having code words like that, I think, is a great ritual to have that you can work into conflict.
I think the thing that is really, really important to name is just the feelings around the emotional labor that are being done.
Ultimately, we can never change our partner. We can grow together. We can choose to change together. All kinds of things happen inside a relationship, but we can never force someone to change. Often, when we expect them to change, the pressure of the expectation causes the other person to double down and shut down and change less. Because there’s this feeling of, “I’m not good enough. I’m already failing. So I’m just going to pull inside and shut down even more.” Which is the opposite of what we want. But when those expectations start to become clear, that’s often the self-protective mechanism that happens.
Dawn Serra: So I think the idea of getting a therapist– If you’re invested in this relationship and you’re willing to be patient and do some more work, then getting a therapist and someone that can help you to practice skills together and mediate some of those different conflict styles could be really, really powerful. But you also have to decide what happens if I pick up and I move and I get there and they say that they’re going to respect the boundaries and they say they’re going to go to therapy and then they don’t. Is that a decision that you can live with? If not, then I think finding ways to work on the relationship where you are, either doing couples counseling online, using something like Talkspace or a therapist like Gina Senarighi, who will do video conferencing with clients, so that she could be in multiple locations might be a really helpful thing.
I also think that often we know the answer deep down inside of ourselves and we often don’t want to trust it because we can think ourselves out of our gut instinct. So if there’s a way to just really rawly sit with, what’s the feeling inside? Is the feeling inside this deep-seated fear that this is something that you really want and doing the work means being seen in ways you’ve never seen before, and so you’re thinking about exiting because that feels scary? Or, is there a feeling inside of, “I’m exhausted and I need something different. And I’m really scared that this person can’t give that to me.” I think that’s a really important feeling to be able to listen to.
Dawn Serra: Of course, there’s all kinds of books out there that can help you. “The Relationship Skills Workbook,” I think, is one of the best books out there. It’s just helping you to find new ways to communicate really clearly around, “This is the feeling I’m having because of this action or behavior that you exhibited. And here’s the request that I need to make in order for this to feel better or for us to shift to something.” If both of you are learning that technique, it can be super powerful. And it’s even really powerful if you learn it and your partner doesn’t, but you start practicing it. Because the statements they teach you to make are unarguable If the statement you make is unarguable, then it means that person can’t argue with it. That can be a really powerful way to be seen.
I think the tough thing is, because you’re both walking on eggshells, especially around things like finances and fights, one of you is going to have to go first. That’s like a terrifying prospect of being the one who’s going to be super vulnerable and potentially get super hurt. But either one of you has to go first or none of you go first and let’s just disintegrate anyway. So what are you willing to get super vulnerable around and be the one to just jump on those eggshells and say, “Here’s some of the things I’m really worried about. Here’s some of the things that I really, really need. Is this something that you are willing to do and can we make this work? Can we talk about strategies?” If that conversation can happen, then I think you get some answers. But it’s not easy and it’s not complicated.
Dawn Serra: But I think one of the keys is you don’t know how to bring up talking about therapist, it might just be that you have to be awkward and throw it out there and tell him, “Look, I just want you to think about this. I’ve been thinking about it a really long time. You don’t have to give me a response right now. You don’t have to think of the words. I would really like for us to go to couples therapy. So sit with that. And let’s circle back in a week, and then see what happens.” Just try setting some of those boundaries around, “I don’t need you to tell me how you’re feeling if you’re not ready. But I need you to hear me in this way.”
Ultimately, I think just trust your gut. I mean, emotional labor is effing exhausting and often, it doesn’t get better. Because the people that we’re in relationship with, what’s the motivation? When we’re doing all this labor, there’s not a lot of motivation to step up and start doing more labor without some really tough conversations like Come to Jesus meetings. So, I think you have to just sit and decide how tired are you. If you’re really tired because you’ve already done a lot of work and it’s not getting better, then it might be the time to just really ask yourself, “If I were to unflinchingly center myself and what I need to care for me, what does that look like?” Then see if the relationship fits into that.
Dawn Serra: So thank you so much for writing. I’m sorry I had to cut so much out of your email. But I wanted to make sure we had a chance to get through as much of it as possible. I have two other questions that are waiting, but I want to open it up and see if anybody else has any questions that are here on the call. So I want to make sure I prioritize those.
In the chat, I’m seeing, “Ahh! That’s so real. Thinking ourselves out of our gut instincts.” Oh! I am so good at thinking myself out of my gut instincts. And then, “Yes, Dawn. I was going to say it sounds like her intuition is really on point. I try to get curious about what’s coming up for me and that helps me get grounded. It’s how I strengthen my inner voice.” Exactly. Trusting those feelings of, “I kind of feel like I’m doing a lot of emotional labor.” That’s a really, really important thing to recognize. Because now you can start taking steps of reducing that emotional labor and now are asking someone to step up and do more. Actually, having the language for that is a huge step. Because most people don’t even realize that’s why they’re exhausted. So go you for having that language.
Dawn Serra: Yay. Yes. Okay. So does anybody else on the call have any questions that they want to throw at me or I will–? I think we have time for maybe one more. I have two questions that came in the emails. Whichever question I don’t get to, I’ll just do on another podcast episode. But let me know if any of you here have something. I’m seeing waves. Hi!
Listener 2: Actually, an add on to the recent question. For me, in my relationship, it’s definitely hard to communicate because we both… When we’re quiet, we literally shut down and don’t even talk and just stare at space without even letting the other person know that we’re in our space. Which is really bad because then I notice he’s upset and I’m asking, “Hey. What’s wrong? Are you okay with?” He’s like, “No. I’m fine. I’m fine. I don’t want to talk about it now.” “Okay. I’m going to let you in your space and when you’re ready, come back to me.” But then it keeps him the next day to come to me and tell me, “I’m mad about this” or I’m mad about that “Okay,” and I give him my input on it and he’s still a little like, “Oh. Wow. Oh, my God. I’m trying to tell you what I feel about this and you’re still not even taking it in. You’re shutting me out. My opinion out. You’re not listening to me. You’re not even–
Today, I did something so horrible to him, I don’t even want to talk about it. But he wanted to be intimate with me but I fell asleep on him. I feel so bad. I fell asleep on him. This morning, today, he looked– He was quiet. He wasn’t happy. I was like, “Hey. What’s wrong?” And then later afternoon, he tells me, “You fell asleep on me.” “I’m sorry. I’m so sorry that I fell asleep on you. I knew that you wanted something but I’m tired and work is so exhausting. I can’t even… But I’m sorry.” He was so quiet from six in the morning until two o’clock in the afternoon. He was quiet throughout the whole entire day. I kept asking him, “Hey. What’s wrong? Are you okay?”
Dawn Serra: So what are you hoping would be different?
Listener 2: I am hoping he would at least tell me “Hey. Listen. I’m upset right now. I kind of like to be in my own space.” At least tell me. If you’re upset, fine. Be upset. “Give me space.” But give me a heads up so I can figure out what I’m going to do or what I’m going to say. Because I try to do that. I try to be like, “Okay. I’m upset right now? And I don’t want to talk about it. When I’m ready, I’ll let you know.” I have made a mistake of not doing that because I had a massage appointment on Tuesday and he’s on his phone with his friends. When he talks, he talks so inappropriate and he was doing that. I was like, “I can’t believe you’re talking like this in a place like this. It can’t be good”
I got so upset and so angry that I had to stop before I explode. I know that if I do that, it’s going to get worse. “I’m going to stop talking about it right now because I’ll get even more upset. I just want him to tell me, “I’m not happy right now. Let me be in my space. And then I’ll come back to you.” And he doesn’t doesn’t do that. I try to do that. I try to tell him, “I’m not happy,” “Let me be here,” and then, “I’ll come back to you.”
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think it’s really important for us to be able to find some language of, “Here’s what I’m not capable of right now. So here’s what I need.” Not everybody is at a place where they’re capable of that. Unfortunately, that can lead to a lot of emotional labor. I noticed that in lots and lots of relationships, where it’s a guy and someone who’s feminine-identified that often, it’s the guy who just totally shuts down and withdraws and doesn’t say anything until he’s ready, which causes a lot of labor on the partner of like, “I think something’s wrong. Is there something going on? Do you need space? Do you want to talk?”
There’s a couple of different ways you can handle this. One, making the request of, “I would really appreciate it if you’re starting to swirl around in your head, that you just let me know. Like, ‘Hey. I just need some space and try to figure stuff out.’” But not everybody’s capable of that. A lot of people are super internal processors and they just go so into process that they don’t even know that they’re going in. So how do we care for ourselves around that?
Dawn Serra: Now, it’s different if it’s like, they don’t talk to you for days. Then I think that’s really shitty. But if it’s a couple of hours or overnight or a morning and they’re just sitting in it, and then they come to you and they share something, I think that’s a really important moment to just acknowledge, “I appreciate that you’ve come to me and shared this with me,” and “What do you need from me?” So that they know it’s safe when they finally do come out of that, in our processing spiral, to actually share it with you and know it’s going to be received with love and things instead of, “Here’s all the things You did wrong.”
I think just finding ways to care for ourselves. Some people literally just aren’t in a place where they can find those words yet. And you have to decide, “How do I care for me if he’s not ready to do that?” So I can make the ask… This would make me feel a little bit better just to know what’s going on with you, so I don’t have to wonder. But if he’s just not at a place where he could do that, then deciding, “Alright. I’ve noticed he’s being quiet and he’s shutting down. I want to pester him. I want to ask the questions. I want to find out what’s going on. But I know that when I do that, he just gets even more withdrawn, so I’m going to go read my favorite book. And maybe I will just send them a little text message that’s like, ‘Hey, I noticed that you are being quiet. When you’re ready to talk, come find me. I’m going to be doing something that feels good for me and just care for self around that,” and then eventually, he’ll probably come to you. So if that feels like a way that you can care for yourself around that, totally do it.
Dawn Serra: I think it’s so hard with internal processors who just totally go in and can’t find the language. But what I’ve found is the more that you badger them, the longer the process takes. So just decide for yourself, how can you care for yourself around that process until he finds the words? And then, hopefully, when he does find the words, that’s a point where there can be some connection. But don’t be afraid to state boundaries of, “These are the things that I really need. So how can we compromise or communicate around those needs so that both of us are feeling, ‘You have the space to process and I also don’t have to sit and worry and be scared and let’s see what we can try around that, then experiment.’” And give time, too. Sometimes around communication stuff, especially, it takes a lot of practice and many months of trying things and sitting with them. So, yeah. Good luck. Thank you for asking because I know lots of people watching have partners, they do that too.
Okay. If anybody has thoughts about internal processors, as partners, and you’ve had to manage that, please drop a thought in the chat. I’m going to read this one last question, and then we will wrap up. So this question says, “Hi, Dawn. First of all, I love your show. Thank you for equipping me with the language and the confidence to come into my sexual self with pride. Your podcast was a blessing to find. I’ve been getting caught up over the past few months. I’m currently on Episode 103 or so. I’m getting there. I’ve had something on my mind that I’m curious about. Honestly, I don’t know who else to ask. I think I have a thing for virgins. And I don’t think I like it.
Dawn Serra: I have recurring fantasies of dominating virgin guys. I’ve never been touched sexually by anyone, but my right hand virgins. I see myself as more of a sensual dom, so usually these fantasies involve me guiding them through getting to know their bodies, figuring out what feels good, watching them push past their awkwardness, taking the lead as I finally provide them with a chance to experience that kind of pleasure with someone else. I find myself being attracted to the idea of their inexperience, nervousness and awkwardness, coupled with their eager sexual selves just waiting to be coaxed out, so they can be shaped into the perfect lover and play thing.
Despite these fantasies, I am adamant about virginity being a construct and I’m uncomfortable with the idea that I’m viewing someone’s enduring, endearing social awkwardness and inexperienced as sexual. I know I would feel weird if the shoe was on the other foot and someone was lusting over me like that. Not to mention, I’ve been in relationships with inexperienced partners before and it’s always been more frustrating than fun. Having open conversations about improving your sex life can be tough when your partner is too awkward to discuss the problem with you.
Dawn Serra: So basically, should I be concerned? What do you know about this kink? Is it just a harmless fantasy? Or, is it something to be wary of? Why am I still drawn to this kink if my experiences with it in reality, so far, have been far from satisfying. Am I a hypocrite? Thank you so much. I look forward to hearing from you.”
Okay. People on the call, what say you? Are you hot for virgin dudes, too? Or, if you’ve got any thoughts, I would love to hear them. Feel free to unmute yourself or type something in the chat before I weigh in. You know, you want to do it. You know, you want to totally dom the virgin dudes and just help them come into their sexual self.
Listener 3: So I guess my question would be, is this kink something that this person wants to actually act on? Or, are they comfortable with it just remaining in their fantasies? Because, if so, then it makes total sense that they’d be fantasizing about something that’s not actually fulfilling in real life, because that’s where it can become as juicy and fun as they want it to be right?
Dawn Serra: Yep.
Listener 3: I wouldn’t be concerned.
Dawn Serra: I love that question. That’s actually exactly what my question was going to be like. Are you wanting to go prey on a whole bunch of sexually inexperienced guys? Or, is this just something that’s like a super hot, spank bank material that you can’t get enough of? Because you like the power and the idea of it in your fantasyland. There’s a big distinction. So I love that. Thank you for that. Any other thoughts or questions for this person? “Yeah. Or, that can be an act in a fantasy way.” Oh. That’s such a really great point. Maybe you do want to act it out. But you want to act it out with someone who’s consenting and experienced and who can pretend to be that virginal self that you slowly coax over to the sensual side of being super experienced.
I would not be concerned, unless the idea of this playing out in real life feels predatory. If you feel like you actually want to go out and take advantage of people, then I think maybe that might be a good place to just talk to someone and find ways around that that can be super consensual. Someone in the chat says, “It’s not my flavor, but I totally get the fantasy.” Agree! Why wouldn’t that fantasy be hot? The thought of you being so wanted and so experienced, that you could totally change someone’s world and life and blow their minds with every single thing you did. I mean, that’s just like this intoxicating power that you would be able to have over other. Often, in life, we don’t have that kind of power. So that sounds like a really delicious fantasy.
Dawn Serra: I think it’s important to note to that this person is able to name that virginity is a construct and that this could be super problematic played out in real life. If you’ve got that kind of awareness, and you have this fantasy, then I think you’re going to be able to balance it in a way where you’re not harming others, you’re just finding something that’s hot, super hot, which is to be endlessly wanted and appreciated and seen as the suave, cool expert that just knows all the right things, that hits all the right buttons, so that they have the most mind-blowing pleasure of their lives. I mean, that sounds like a pretty yummy fantasy for a lot of different reasons, because we want to be mind-blowing. As this person noted, in real life, it’s not usually like that.
I have certainly lived out fantasies and found that the lived experience of the fantasy was pretty disappointing. But that doesn’t mean that that fantasy doesn’t stay in my spank bank thing. It’s just that I get to control all the factors in my mind, so that it stays hot even though the lived reality of it isn’t. So I think you’re fine. Just enjoy that hot, hot, hot spank bank material. Also, this fantasy– Someone in the chat is saying, “Also, this fantasy can come from the idea that if it is the first time, the usual “masculine” scripts can be a bit more open.” Oh. I love that insight. Yes. Absolutely. That’s super yummy. Totally. Yeah. “That’s so rad actually subverting patriarchy.” Right. Yeah. Instead of, “Take charge. I know what to do. I’m going to slam you against the wall,” you have the opposite or you have to invite them in and then they do it the way you want, not the way they want. So hot. “And the version horror complex.” Exactly. Yes.
Dawn Serra: So to the person that wrote in with that, enjoy your virgin fantasy and masturbate away and role play it away. Find people who want to role play that with you. What if you could role play with an entire harem of virginal guys and you were just blowing all of their minds and teaching them how to touch themselves and touch you. I mean, you can go a lot of really fun places with that one. So have fun.
Alright. So to everybody who tuned in, thank you so much for being here with us. To all of you who were here, if you want to unmute yourselves and just say hi out there world. I would love for everyone to know you were all here. So say hello.
Listeners: Hello! Hi!
Dawn Serra: Thank you so much to all of you for being here and being a part of this celebratory episode. I’m so excited to have all your voices and thoughts as part of that– I’m kind of feeling like I want to do this more often. Where it’s just your calls that become part of the podcast because I know it would be really rich and fun. Thank you for being my guinea pigs in the first ever time I’ve done something like this– Oh. There’s a puppy. Thank you so much all of you. Yay! This was awesome.
Listeners: Thank you.
Dawn Serra: You’re welcome. Bye everybody!