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HAPPY EPISODE 200!
So what’s up for this episode?
You all have been sending me some TERRIFIC questions lately, and I was eager to dive in.
Aussie Gal wrote in from Australia with some love and delight. Satisfied Slippery Slut went to She Bop in Portland after hearing it mentioned on a previous episode and had a lovely experience. Let’s all support feminist sex shops! They’re awesome!
A listener texted me asking what kind of strap-on harness I use and how I keep it tight when I’m using it. So, I talk about my favorite strap-on as well as some other options folks might want to check out.
Scott wrote in with a question about orgasms. He’s pretty sure he gave his past partners orgasms and noticed they curled their toes. He’s pretty sure his new girlfriend is happy and enjoying their connection, but he’s also pretty sure she isn’t orgasming since she doesn’t curl her toes when her body is spasming. Is toe curling a sure sign of orgasms?
Anonymous has a condition that means vaginal penetration with her partner isn’t a possibility for their sex life. They are really happy and incredibly passionate, but she’s worried he is missing out since they can’t have PIV sex. Is she being selfish or can sex that doesn’t include intercourse actually work over the long term?
Merel Ann is struggling because her and her boyfriend decided to open up their relationship after months of talking about it. Everything was going great until he broke the one and only agreement they had, and now she feels betrayed. Can she ever get over the feelings of betrayal and broken trust? How can she move forward?
In addition to some of my thoughts on trust, betrayal, and moving on, I also recommend working with open relationship coach Gina Senarighi of Uncommon Love PDX. It might also help to check out Esther Perel’s books “Mating in Captivity” and “The State of Affairs.” Of course, I do work around this, too, if that helps.
Finally, Ethical Fan is from Mexico and he just read a piece in the NY Times about porn and kids. Is it really that bad? How can he talk to his 13 year old and 15 year old about porn so that they don’t suffer bad expectations around sex?
That NY Times piece was a scare piece by an anti-porn writer. So, it’s skewed and meant to terrify readers. Porn is not evil. The lack of education we offer young people is the real problem. We must start teaching media literacy to kids from the youngest of ages, and that helps with porn exposure. We have to start talking to our kids about porn at very young ages, because curiosity is natural and having sexual feelings as you’re growing up is normal, so the more we can open that line of communication and arm them with the skills they’ll need to see the difference between reality and fantasy, the better.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
About Dawn Serra
Dawn Serra is a therapeutic Body Trust coach and pleasure advocate. As a white, cis, middle class, queer, fat, survivor, Dawn’s work is a fiercely compassionate invitation for each of us to deepen our relationships with our bodies and our pleasure as an antidote to the trauma, disconnection, and isolation so many of us feel. Your pleasure matters. Your body is wise. Dawn’s work is all about creating spaces and places for you to explore what that means on your terms. To learn more, visit dawnserra.com or follow Dawn on Instagram.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!
Oh, my God. Okay. I just finished recording the entire episode, which you will hear in just a minute. But after I finished recording, I realized this is Episode 200 of Sex Gets Real. 200 episodes and you helped make that happen. Oh, my God! I can’t believe I forgot. I am going to be doing a live recording of Sex Gets Real to celebrate the 200th episode and 49 of you can join me online for a video recording of Sex Gets Real. I want you to be there.
Dawn Serra: I am giving away 49 spots to folks who can attend on Thursday, March 22nd at 5pm Pacific/8pm Eastern. So you have to be available, March 22nd at 5pm Pacific/8pm Eastern, for an online live recording of Sex Gets Real. You get to see my face. I get to see your face. You get to ask me questions. It’s going to be our way of celebrating Episode 200.
If you want to enter to win one of the spots, there is a form that you can fill out to grab one of those entry spots. I will be randomly selecting 49 folks for that. So there is a link in the show notes and on the website for this episode. Please go fill it in. All I need is your name, your email, an assurance that you’re a certain age and that you’re available on that night. Then next week, I will be doing the drawing and letting everyone know who got those 49 spots. And then we will do a live taping of the show that will air in a couple of weeks. Holy shit! 200! Okay. Now, here is the episode I recorded a few minutes ago.
Dawn Serra: Hello, listeners! This is dropping the week of Valentine’s Day. So, for many of us, there’s going to be plans happening and dates. And for many others of us, grumpiness and hating this made-up holiday and all the feels that come with seeing absolutely everything covered in pink and red and roses. I am actually in San Diego this weekend for the ISSWSH Conference, which is the International Society for the Study of Women’s Sexual Health. It’s been interesting. I’m going to have a lot of thoughts and feelings that I will eventually be putting into a blog post. It’s a conference for researchers, doctors, nurses, psychologists, psychiatrists. So people with lots of letters after their name. Almost everybody here is a PhD or close to. I am crashing the party with my muggle non-academia self, non-medical self.
It’s been fascinating. Everybody has been so nice and friendly and interested. The conversations have ranged from menopause and vaginal pain to erectile dysfunction following prostate cancer, which even though that’s not about women’s sexual health, was a special breakout session to an entire symposium about trans health, specifically, gender affirming surgeries and hormones. There have been a lot of interesting studies and recent research shared and a lot of misses. No mention of kink. No mention of sex work. Very few mentions of pleasure. Lots of mentions of things like measuring sexual satisfaction and measuring orgasms. But there seems to be this collective belief that a lack of pain and the presence of swelling tissue is a win. I just find it fascinating.
Dawn Serra: Also, lots of conversations about sexual health. But this huge missing piece of talking about culture. It’s almost as if we view each individual person’s body as a vacuum that has to be treated for all of the things that we see as abnormal without taking into account the larger social issues, cultural issues, relational issues. It’s this bizarre place of brilliant minds tackling really interesting problems. But at the same time insisting that everything about our experience must be measurable and must be quantifiable. I just don’t know that that’s true. I have lots of thoughts and lots of feelings about this conference.
I’m also in a motorhome right now because the conference hotel was rather pricey. So Alex and I decided to get an Airbnb that ended up being a motorhome in a motorhome park. I am actually in a motorhome right now with the wind blowing and the sunshine and recording this on my little Apple earbuds. So we’re going old school at this one.
I also want to remind everybody if you’re looking for something fun to either give as a gift or to just treat yourself, I have three new workshops that are pre-enrolling right now. You can check those out. Of course, there’s links in the show notes and at dawnserra.com for this episode. But the three workshops are “Take Up Space,” a workshop on boundaries, “Time to Play,” all about exploring your capacity for play to reconnect, reignite and rejuvenate, and then, “Anger Allowed” – which I’m really excited about – on ways that we can have really yummy relationships with our anger, both in expressing it and in using it wisely. So if you want to take advantage of any of those workshops, they are all online. They will be on demand, meaning, you can watch them at your convenience at home. And they’re super affordable, $20 and $30 range. So check those out in the show notes.
Dawn Serra: Today, it’s just going to be you, me and a bunch of your emails. So let’s dive in. The first email comes from Aussie Gal and the subject line is “Fuck, yes!” “Dawn, Hi from Australia! Fuck, yes! You and your podcast have changed the entire way I operate in my sex life. I’m 32, divorced and in a new relationship for about a year. After listening to many of your podcasts, I’ve opened up my most inner desires to my partner and created an open line of communication about my semi-kinky needs around the ass area, among other things. He, in turn, opened up to me and I have a clear path on pleasing him also.
Mate, you’re a legend. We are still a long way from sex positivity over here. People still think sluts are even a thing. It’s pathetic, but I’m living the sex positive life and hope to inspire others through my attitude. My best friend also loves your podcast. She’s more confident in communication around sex also. Thank you so much for stepping up and changing so many people’s lives. Cheers! Aussie Gal.” Ahh! That was such a fun email to receive. Thank you so much, Aussie Gal, to you and your best friend for listening and for writing in. That just made me so happy. I love receiving things like that.
Dawn Serra: I also got an email from Satisfied Slippery Slut with a subject line that says, “Love the lube.” “Hi, Dawn. I recently discovered the podcast and I’ve been binge listening to the past episodes. I was so gassed that toys and lube were potentially dangerous that I immediately looked at what I can change. I heard an episode about body safe toys and lubes that suggested She Bop as a store to check out. I live just outside the Portland, Oregon area. I went today with a lover. Oh, my God! They were fantastic. They had a tester of every lube. They also have every lube color coded to tell you what was water-based, what was safe, what was what. Amazing! I tested lubes on my hand and bought a very nice water-based lube called Sutil. I cannot wait to buy more from She Bop. They had one of almost every item out of the package so customers can touch and feel the products. It was so amazing. I’ve never felt so safe and educated in any sex store. So thank you for sharing about this amazing place. A satisfied slut.”
She Bop is amazing. The good news is they’re not the only one. There are so many incredible sex positive, body safe-committed ethical shops. She Bop is definitely one of them. Sugar in Baltimore is another. Shag in Brooklyn. Self Serve Sexuality Resource Center down in Albuquerque. Smitten Kitten up in Minneapolis. If you want a great big list of shops that are just like She Bop, you can head to JoEllen Notte’s blog and look for her Sex Ed Superhero Tour. She has a whole bunch of the shops listed. Of course, new ones are coming out all the time because it’s a growing industry. But yay for lubes and yay for body safe toys and even more yay for amazing shops like She Bop that make sex and pleasure products safe and accessible and something that we want to talk about and learn about. And not one of those gross, smelly plastic stores with dark curtains. Those make for fun stories, but not necessarily the best shopping.
Dawn Serra: I have gotten so many emails from all of you in the past week and a half. It’s been amazing. You know I love getting your emails. Every single one just delights me to the core. Even though I have hundreds upon hundreds just sitting in the queue waiting for either me to get to or for specific experts to show up, I try to get to as many as I can. So today we’re going to try and power through a handful. I got a text from someone that said, “In your earlier podcasts, you talk about getting off while using a strap on. What brand do you recommend to keep it that tight?”
Well, the brand that I use because I’m in a fat body is the SpareParts Joque Harness. They have a size “A” and a size “B.” The size “A” is for anyone who’s considered straight-sized. So people that can shop in pretty much any store and find their size. Usually, people who are size 14 and below, if you’re buying clothes for women. Then size “B” is for those of us that are in bigger bodies. Everything is fully adjustable. It’s also entirely fabric and washable. So, for me, I’m able to velcro the sides on as tight as it’ll go, and then make the leg straps super tight and strap myself in. Now, you can get firmer strap ons that you might even have a little bit more of that grind going on when you’re using the strap on. But, unfortunately, a lot of those straps would not fit for my body because I’m in a fat body. So there’s leather strap ons that you can get and a variety of other materials that you can find strap ons in. But the leather ones tend to have that really tight fit, at least initially. Once the leather softens, that changes a little bit.
Dawn Serra: But I highly recommend the SpareParts Harnesses. They have a huge line of a variety of colors and styles. They have ones that are for folks who are more masculine presenting with tomboy shorts. Those don’t have much adjustability, so you’re going to find those aren’t going to give you a lot of control. They’re more about the aesthetic and having that more masculine approach. They also make this amazing strap-on called “The Deuce,” which we have. You can use it a couple of different ways, but it’s specifically designed for double penetration. You can either use two dildos and it to do DP or you can put your cock through one hole, and then a dildo through the other hole and do the DP. Of course, you can also just use it as a regular strap on for a single dick or a single dildo. But it’s a really fun DP product that you don’t often see with strap ons.
So thank you so much for asking that question. I personally, because of my body, love the SpareParts Joque Harness. But, for sure, head into whatever your local sex positive shop is. Give yourself an opportunity to touch them and feel them and ask about them. Because depending on what kind of body you’re in, it might be easier for you if you had one that was leather or that was made out of a leather-like product. So good luck in your strap on hunt.
Dawn Serra: I got an email from Scott with a subject line of, “Female orgasm curiosity.” “Hi, Dawn! I’m a longtime listener. I wanted to first say how much your podcast has helped evolve my perspective on life, relationships and sex. I love what you do and the way you do it. I’ve listened to many of your podcasts, although I’m not caught up because I work from home now and don’t have the commute where I was doing my listening. I’m meaning to catch up. I have a question. I’m in a new relationship of five months. I’m the second man in her life and from what I understand, her first was only with a few times–” They only had sex a few times, I think. There’s a few words missing. “The sex in our relationship is absolutely amazing and the best I’ve ever experienced. It’s like we’re two puzzle pieces designed to fit together. I feel that I can tell she’s also very happy.
So my question is cliche, but I’ll be asking about the big O. Please forgive me. Here it goes. In my relationships, I’m pretty sure my partners achieved orgasm. I value being very attentive and I love foreplay. I read up on books for massage and other books like “She Comes First.” One thing I’ve always noticed is during orgasm, my partner’s toes would curl. With my new partner, I feel all of her involuntary motion and abdominal muscles contracting, but when I think it might be happening, there’s no toe curl. I’m curious, maybe she’s new enough to sex that she’s not had an orgasm yet. So is no toe curl a sure sign that no orgasm is happening. I don’t want to ask her because I don’t want to put pressure on her and make her feel like I’m expecting her to. I only want to know because I feel like knowing when your partner orgasms is important considering how the body can change where it’s sensitive before and after. Not earth shattering because both of us are happy, but I thought I would share my inquiry with you. Scott.”
Dawn Serra: Thank you so much for listening, Scott. I appreciate it. I also love that you wrote in with this question because lots of people have questions like this. I think my answer is going to be super dissatisfying to you. But that’s okay because that’s what my answer is just going to be.
So a couple of things stood out. You said, “I feel that I can tell she’s very happy.” Then, you also said that, “I’m pretty sure my partners achieved orgasm.” You also say you don’t want to ask her about her orgasm because you don’t want to place an expectation, which is certainly coming from a good place. But all of the language you’re using is making it pretty clear that you’re not actually talking to your partners about they’re experiences. You’re guessing. You’re guessing that she’s very happy based on cues that you’re picking up. And you’re pretty sure that your previous partners achieved orgasm because of this toe curl. And then, because of this lack of toe curl, you’re worried that your current partner isn’t having an orgasm. But you don’t want to ask her about it.
Dawn Serra: You have to ask. That’s the only way to know. Not everybody curls their toes. Not everybody has the same kinds of involuntary motion. Not everybody has the same kinds of muscle spasms. In fact, some people’s orgasms don’t involve any kind of visual cue that you would ever be able to pick up on. Just like lots of people can absolutely fake orgasms by doing all kinds of shaking and screaming and loud movements because they know those are the visual cues that people expect from an orgasm. But I have absolutely both experienced partners and seeing people in clubs who have absolutely experienced an orgasm and there was the barest, tiniest flutter of eyelids. That was the only thing or nothing at all other than a sigh.
The only way to know if she’s happy is to actually be having conversations about it. Just like the only way to know somebody who’s having an orgasm is to ask. There’s absolutely a way to have that conversation without it being about expectations. When you’re coming from a place of honest curiosity, of what is sex been like for you? And what kinds of experiences have you had in the past? What kinds of experiences would you like to have in the future? What kinds of things could we do differently or would you like to try? Have you ever had an orgasm? What does it felt like? Is it different when you’re by yourself or with a partner? You can have all of these questions and do it in a way that feels playful and engaged and interesting, so that it’s not about putting on an expectation, but genuinely gathering information about somebody that you care about. Hopefully, that opens the door for them to also be curious about your experience.
Dawn Serra: So toe curls are absolutely not an indication that someone is having or not having an orgasm. Just like certain kinds of body movements, noises and shakes are not a guarantee that it’s happening. Unless someone actually tells you they came. There’s no way to know for sure. Now, we can read body language and we can get to know our partners and certainly, understand certain cues probably mean that something like that happened. When we kind of get that nonverbal communication going and we understand each other’s bodies as they are now – because, again, bodies change – we can certainly do that in more nonverbal ways. But again, it’s always just kind of an assumption. So unless someone specifically tells you this is what happened, we’re either guessing, hoping or assuming.
And depending on where we are in our relationships, that might be exactly what we need to do. And that feels good. Maybe we don’t need to verbally check in every single time because that might be exhausting. But if you want to know, it’s not necessarily about watching for those physical cues, at least not until you’ve had enough experiences together where she’s articulated what her experience was and you got to see what her body reaction to that response was. And then you can start building that story. But certainly comparing other people’s bodies to a current partner’s bodies, sometimes that can give us information, but, again, you don’t actually know unless you ask.
My hope for you, Scott, is because the sex is so amazing and the two of you feel like two puzzle pieces that are fitting together, that you find a way to have a really fun, yummy conversation all about sex and experiences and what’s going on in for her. And then you’ll have your answer. Thank you so much for listening.
Dawn Serra: I got an email from someone who wants to remain anonymous that I absolutely adore. The subject line is “Can unconventional sex work?” “Hi, Dawn. I’m a huge fan of the show. I’ve been steadily making my way through past episodes. I have a question that no one has been able to help me with. My fiance and I have been together for five years now and are very passionate. Our friends and family hate going out with us because of the PDA, but we don’t care. I’m so attracted to him and he makes me feel like I’m perfect despite my physical flaws. There’s one flaw though that made our sex life different.
I have a medical condition that makes it painful for penetration. Long story short, I was born a preemie and everything developed small internally and externally. I have next to no breasts. I’ve never had a period, etc. He’s very supportive of the life changes we’ll have to make. One of those has been penis in vagina sex. It sounds silly because what we’ve been doing has been working. He says he is completely satisfied and fulfilled. But I can’t help but worry that it will never be the same fulfillment that he’d get with conventional sex. He was a virgin when we got together. So he doesn’t know otherwise. But him being a man, it’s always on the back of my mind that I’m making him miss out on so much. We’re both very sex positive and we’re both firm on monogamy. My question is, do you think it’s possible for a relationship to last a lifetime without conventional sex or am I being selfish? Thanks and love.”
Dawn Serra: I love this question. I love it so much. Thank you so much to Anonymous – you know who you are – for writing in with this. The short answer is absolutely. I absolutely believe that we can have long-term fulfilling, delicious, sexy, pleasure-filled relationships that are sexual and erotic that don’t include intercourse. There’s a variety of people who are in a variety of situations where intercourse is not part of the package. Whether you have had prostate cancer and erections are just not part of the thing anymore or maybe you’re intersex or maybe you’re trans or maybe you have a disability that makes intercourse something that you just can’t do because of your body. Maybe you have different levels of vaginal pain like you do. There’s so many different reasons why people in so many different bodies don’t have penis in vagina sex, and they can have fulfilling, delicious sex lives.
I don’t think you’re being selfish. He gets to opt into this and he knows what he’s opting into. You’re not lying. You’re not hiding. You’re not making false promises. It’s not like he’s sitting in a place where he’s hopeful that maybe one day it’ll happen. He knows your body and he knows you. He knows what the situation is. He says he’s fulfilled and satisfied and happy and what you’ve been doing is working. The scariest thing that we can do sometimes is trust someone when they say, “Yes. This works and I want it.” It’s vulnerable to believe them. Because when we let go of those last little fears and we go all in, that’s when we’re most likely to just feel devastated if something changes. But that’s also where the amazing reward and connection comes from. I don’t think that you’re being selfish. I don’t think that you’re manipulating or lying. He gets to decide what kinds of sex he wants to engage in and with whom he has them and he’s choosing you.
Dawn Serra: Unfortunately, our culture has taught us that penis and vagina sex is real sex and that everything else is foreplay – which I hate that word – and/or some kind of bonus or lead up to in “the real thing.” But for so many people, vaginal penetration is just not part of sex. I mean, for gay men, they have all kinds of sex, but it has nothing to do with vaginas. In most cases, some gay men have vaginas. But in most cases, no vaginas. Lesbians have all kinds of wonderful sex often without any kind of penetration. Some do, certainly. Some with fingers. Some with toys and strap ons, but lots don’t. There’s all kinds of different bodies. And older bodies. We’re all going to go through variety of changes as we age. Often, after menopause, our vaginal tissue is very thin and dry. Sex can become painful. Of course, I’m at a conference right now, where they’re trying to come up with all kinds of solutions and products that help with that, which is lovely for the people who want it, but it’s not mandatory. Because oral sex is sex. Hand sex is sex. Sex toys are sex. Mutual masturbation is sex. I mean, all of it counts and all of it is delicious.
There’s so many ways to be creative in the body that you have and to create mutual pleasure for each other. So I absolutely think that the situation that you have can work and that you can both be so satisfied and fulfilled and creative and curious and enjoying the bodies that you have. I know that it can be scary to trust that because the world tells us that to be good at sex and to actually be having sex is to check this magical box. But that’s just not a reality for lots of people. If it’s a reality for them now, it might not b down the road. The more that we can invite in all these other kinds of paths to sexual pleasure and connection to the erotic, the more we set ourselves up for all kinds of potential for connection and joy and pleasure.
Dawn Serra: To you Anonymous, who wrote in, enjoy it and trust him. You’re allowed to check in and see how he’s feeling a couple months, a couple years from now. It can be an ongoing conversation of love and wanting to make sure that he feels satisfied. But you also get to focus on what makes you feel satisfied and that is so absent from your email. You’re so worried about not being able to offer him this thing, but I don’t hear any mention of what works for you? Focus on your satisfaction and pleasure too, because I can tell you that if he cares about you, he is going to want that to be a part of the equation, too. What gets you off? What feels amazing? What do you want to try and you haven’t yet? Would just take your pleasure to the next level no matter what it looks like? The more that you can embrace that and invite that in, the more he’s going to feel like a wonderful supportive sex god in your partnership. And that’s also a wonderful thing.
So experiment and love it and just know that all of the cultural messages around us are telling us to have this insecurity and that sex should be something very specific. But that is not a true story for so many people out in the world. Which means you’re not broken and you’re normal and it’s wonderful and it absolutely can work. So I want to wish you the best of luck. It sounds like you have an incredible relationship of five years with lots of passion and tons of PDA. I hope that that keeps up. Thank you so much for listening.
Dawn Serra: On to the next listener email. Merel Ann wrote in with a subject of, “Cheating in a poly relationship.” “Hi, Dawn. First, I want to say I absolutely love you and your podcast. You have changed the way I think and feel about sexuality in so many positive ways. Thank you for learning me so many awesome, juicy, kinky things. I think this will maybe be a bit long, so I’m sorry beforehand. I just don’t have many people to talk to that will understand this. So here it is. Me and my boyfriend have been together for almost a year and a half. It has been amazing. We have the best communication ever. We talked about absolutely everything and anything. We both really felt like an open or a poly relationship was something we wanted. But we had never had the opportunity in past relationships.
The last few months, we have been talking about it a lot. Until two weeks ago, when we felt like it was time to take action. We had one rule, which was condoms. Everything was allowed from anal and pegging to fucking whatever he or I felt like. It was okay. Because I have a thing for pegging, which he doesn’t like. And he has a thing for face fucking, which I don’t like. I had this amazing date. Afterwards, me and my boyfriend both felt great about this. We talked a lot, felt amazing things. And then two days ago, he went on a date. When he came home, he was being a bit weird about telling me what happened. At first he said, she just gave him a blow job and nothing else happened. I was like, “Okay. Well, that’s awesome. Why be shy and weird about that?” The next day, he tells me, “Actually, something else happened. After the blowjob, we had sex.” Again, I was like, “Well, no big deal. Awesome for you. Why wouldn’t you tell me?” And you might have guessed it, no condom. The only rule we had and he breaks it.
Dawn Serra: I don’t know what to feel or think or do. I feel betrayed. I don’t know how I will ever be able to build back this amazing trust we had. I still want this relationship, but I feel so insecure and hurt. I don’t get why he would do such a thing. He feels extremely sorry and keeps asking what he can do to fix it and he will do anything. I just need to tell him what to do. But I don’t know how on earth to move forward from something like this. I’m sorry for the long email, but I would love to hear your thoughts. Thank you. Merel Ann.”
I feel so sad for you. I feel this so hard and– Yeah. I feel this so hard on a very personal level, in addition to a professional one. I’m sorry that this happened. You are allowed to feel betrayed. You are allowed to feel all of the things that you’re feeling. It’s a very reasonable– Who even cares about reasonable? But it’s the thing that you’re feeling because trust was broken. That’s a really hard thing to grapple with.
Dawn Serra: One of the things that first came to mind when I read your email is you need to work with Gina Senarighi. I’ve had Gina on the show a couple of times and she’s a therapist who now almost exclusively does coaching for folks who are brand new to non-monogamy. She’s amazing. If you want to check her out, her website is Uncommon Love PDX – for Portland – nonmonogamous.com. She does do distance sessions. So even if you’re not in Portland, you can get coaching around non-monogamy stuff via Skype with her. She’s fantastic, so I recommend that. She also has loads of resources on her website for people who are struggling with betrayal and who are new to non-monogamy and not sure where to get started. I would also just recommend signing up for her list and checking out the resources that she puts out.
Trust is a tough one. I’m sure you’ve heard me mention stuff like this in the past before and it’s one of those things where when we hear people talk about it, we think, “Yeah. That makes sense.” Of course. But when it happens to us, it feels completely and totally different. The reality that we get confronted with of what it means to rebuild trust after something like this can feel crushing. It’s not a small task. Now, the good news is – and Gina would agree with me and Esther Perel agrees with me. She’s written a whole book about it. – when you have something like this happen, when there is betrayal that happens, if the people involved are able to show up and tolerate the terrible feelings and to do the work, to rebuild that trust and that communication, often what comes after is an even stronger relationship.
Dawn Serra: But a lot of people aren’t ready to do that work. Because it means being really uncomfortable and feeling lots of really difficult to sit in feelings for a really long time. This doesn’t get better after a couple of weeks or even a couple of months. Oftentimes, navigating betrayal and trust in a relationship takes years. Now, that’s not to say that you’re suffering that entire time because it’s incremental. There are points where things shift and grow and strengthen and it feels less tender and it feels less present and it takes up less space. But to get to a place where trust is really solid again, usually takes years.
I’m sure you’ve heard me mentioned this before, I think Brené Brown’s— Oh, my God. This motorhome has leather seats and my ass is stuck to it. Anyway. Brené Brown has this wonderful thing that she talks about with trust called “The Marble Jar.” The thing with trust is it takes consistent, repetitive action to demonstrate trust, real trust. Most of us show up and we meet somebody and we already have a certain level of trust that we’re just granting them. It can be based on past experiences or that particular person or the depth of our connection, but we just grant them a half full or a three quarters full jar of marbles that represents our trust. Then, as we develop our relationship and we have conversations and trust gets demonstrated over and over and over again, those marbles just keep filling up. When we are in a place of just complete trust, that’s when our marble jar is full.
Dawn Serra: But when there’s a betrayal, you don’t just lose a couple of marbles. The entire jar is shattered. There’s no way to put the marbles back into the jar because it’s broken. So you have to get a new jar. Then you have to start from the bottom. It takes a little while to get that first marble in there. And then it takes a little while to get that second marble in there. I can tell you, it takes a really long time to get into a place where you’re a quarter or you’re halfway up that marble jar. Because you’ve actually gone below baseline.
It’s not that it’s hopeless. It’s not that you can’t do it. You can. And often, the work builds tremendous skills and creates tremendous connection. But it means that the both of you are going to have to be pretty uncomfortable with the stuff that’s going to come up next. That’s why I think getting some outside help with Gina would be really helpful. I do some work in this space, too. So feel free to reach out. But I do think Gina is a fantastic resource because she specializes in this place of non-monogamy.
Just know that you are going to have some feelings. That you have to work through multiple times. It’s not a one and done. Often, when we need an apology from somebody, we need that apology and be really specific. When we finally get that apology and it’s okay to actually have a conversation about this. Like, “This is the thing that I need an apology,” around what was done, the impact to me and what you will do moving forward. That can heal a piece of it. But then there can be more work and then you can hit another point where you realize, “Ouch. There’s another thing that needs another apology.” So there might be multiple points in the journey where you need multiple apologies and where he has to find a way to tolerate you being in pain for a significant amount of time.
Dawn Serra: Also, it doesn’t all have to be the only thing that you focus on. One of the things that I think is so hard for people is when they have mismatched desire or when there’s been a betrayal or when there’s been some big event or you finally named a long standing disagreement or stuckness, there’s this tendency you just want to focus all your energy on this thing because, “Maybe if I focus all my energy on the thing, I can fix it faster.” That’s not how it works. We have to remember to find ways to connect and to play and to enjoy each other in other spaces. So maybe that’s taking classes together or going to the movies. But you have to continue to nourish the relationship, even as you’re struggling with the feelings of betrayal and anger and rage and hurt.
So it’s complicated. It’s unfortunate that this happened, but it did. I think the two of you are going to have to try and find some kindness for yourselves. You also need to find a way to feel those feelings you’ve got. You do feel betrayed and underneath that is probably some anger or rage. Underneath that, potentially, some grief and sadness. So finding ways to just allow those feelings to come up when they do is a really important part of the healing process.
Dawn Serra: You also have to decide, do you want to close your relationship for awhile while you work through this? Do you want to renegotiate? Do you want to do something different? Because in the end, you can’t ever have the guarantee he won’t do this again. But what you can decide is what will you do if it happens again? You can’t control him. I think that’s one of the scariest things for people is to realize we can make all the agreements in the world, but we can never control what somebody else does with their life. We can only control how we respond to that. Hopefully, if we have enough trust and enough patience, we get to a place where that feels a little more spacious and there’s a little bit more ease.
Certainly, I have experienced that. Where things that used to cause me tremendous suffering and pain now hurt, but they don’t completely and utterly crushed me. But it takes time. It’s not the kind of time that we like giving in our very, very, very, very busy lives. We like immediacy. We like responses. We like knowing we achieved the thing and marketing off the list and getting good at something because we read a couple of articles. But that’s not how this works. Most of us don’t know if we have the skill set until we’re deep in it. And that’s tough.
Dawn Serra: I just want to offer you an opportunity to know you have every right to feel the way that you feel. You have every right to talk about a new set of boundaries that you’re going to need to feel safe and supported as you navigate this space of betrayal. I do think that getting some additional help would speed this process up. But do note, you can move forward from something like this. You can actually move into a place with even more strength and resilience in your relationship. But it’s only going to come on the other side of some really tough, ugly, uncomfortable stuff. So if the two of you have the skills and the patience to ride that out, you can get there. But just know there’s going to be some discomfort. That doesn’t mean you’re doing it wrong. It actually probably means you’re doing it right. Because this is an uncomfortable place to be.
I’m so sorry that this happened. I’m so sorry. I’m so sorry. It is not a fun place to be. But I do hope that the two of you find some support. I do hope that the two of you are able to find something that works and that feels good and that you get to a place of feeling supported and nourished after all these big ugly, scary feelings that you’re going through now. So good luck and thank you so much for listening. I want you to know you are not alone. Yeah. It’s shitty. That’s the only way to name it. So thank you so much, Merel Ann. Please keep me posted. I will have Gina’s details on Sex Gets Real for this episode, as well as in the show notes and also a link to Esther Perel’s book that might just give you some tidbits of things to to chew on. So good luck.
Dawn Serra: Ethical Fan wrote in about teens and the age of free porn. It says, “Dear Dawn, I’ve listened to your podcast for over a year. I find it most entertaining and enlightening. I’m a 40 plus hetero man, south of the border. My whole life I’ve yearned of sex being discussed the way you do. I am a father of two teens with ADHD. I don’t fool myself. I know they’re probably watching porn online. I try to be open with them about sex and sexuality, but it is not an easy subject. Recently, I read a lengthy article about today’s teens being exposed to massive amounts of porn as compared to what people my age watched. I found it very worrisome. It describes the way mainstream porn can twist your sense of what sex is really like. I recognize some of those effects in myself and how hard it has been to overcome some of those misconceptions and attitudes. Hence, making ethical porn so appealing to me. So the question is, how do you even begin a talk about this with a 13 or a 15 year old teen? How can I be supportive without being intrusive in their privacy? Is the article exaggerating? I don’t think that it is. But I would like to know your thoughts anyways. Thank you for what you do.”
So it’s a New York Times Magazine piece about teenagers learning about sex from online porn. It is definitely a little bit of a scare piece. I want to start with that. That it is certainly an alarmist approach. Now, I’m not going to say this wrong. But the way that it’s written is very much meant to scare you. I am not going to link to it just because I don’t really want to drive traffic to it. But a quick search on New York Times you can find it.
Dawn Serra: Here’s the thing I want to start with. Talking to teenagers about porn is too late. Now, if you’re already there, you can’t change the past. It’s not meant to make you feel bad. But it’s just a simple fact. We need to be talking to kids about content that they will potentially be exposed to from the earliest of ages. Because there have been a number of studies showing that seven, eight and nine year olds are already seeing porn. That’s just what happens when kids have access to the internet and mobile devices. You know that no matter how old you are, when you are seven, eight or nine years old, if you had found a nudie) mag under your parents’ bed or you had found porn DVD and the DVD player, you absolutely would have watched it. So kids today are no different. It’s just that the access is a lot easier. It is also very easy to get around parental controls. Now, that’s not to create like a great big fear swell, ban all the porn. That’s not the answer.
Porn is not inherently bad. The ways that we use it and fail to educate people are. We exist in a world where most countries do not have comprehensive sex education. Now, being from Mexico, the culture is going to be very different from the one that I grew up in in the United States and the one that I now live in in Canada. That said, because you have access to shows like this and you’ve learned about ethical porn, you can start having new conversations. No matter where you are in the world, the likelihood that if your young people have either devices that connect to the internet themselves or they know people who do may have seen porn. They may not have known that it was porn. They might have been too young to know what it was, but they have seen it.
Dawn Serra: Unfortunately, most kids don’t stumble across ethical porn because ethical porn is always behind a paywall. Unless it’s been stolen. And then the ethical porn makers are trying to get it taken down. The stuff that kids are stumbling across is the stuff that you’re going to find on Redtube or Pornhub, something along those lines, which, again, is often stolen content. But it’s also often stuff that is not ethically made from a feminist perspective. Porn can skew expectations and we know that it does. It’s why so many young women are interested in having labiaplasty. They want to have plastic surgery to alter the look of their genitals because their genitals don’t match the genitals they see in porn. That’s the only reason.
We need to be having conversations about that, about the way that bodies look and how the ones that they might see someday are not representative of all the different types of bodies from the youngest of ages. We also need to be talking about what happens when you see content like this. You might want to come talk to me about it or you can talk to another adult, making it safe for kids to be able to talk to other adults about things that they see to ask questions.
Dawn Serra: Now, you already have a 13 and a 15 year old and you know that they’ve already seen porn. Starting the conversations now is going to be really uncomfortable because none of you have the skills and the practice, where this is just going to be an easy conversation. If you had been talking to them from the time they were four, five, six years old about their bodies, about media, about how movies are made and then eventually worked your way up to, “Sometimes there’s a content for made for grownups and we need to talk about that.” Now, you’re starting from a place of, “Well, a lot has already happened. And now we’re going to try and talk about it.” You just have to know it’s going to feel weird and they’re probably not going to like it. And that’s okay. You’re going to try anyway.
I would highly recommend following Nadine Thornhill, who I’ve had on the show before. She specializes in helping parents to talk to kids about sex and porn. She has some wonderful resources and certainly, you can reach out to her. If you want to hire her for a consult, she could absolutely help you come up with some scripts. She’s not the only sex educator out there that talks about this. Scarleteen is a phenomenal website. It’s one of the best sex education websites in the world for young people. It has some of the most progressive information. They absolutely have loads of posts and community chat about teens and porn. So that might be a fun, easy way to start is to print off some of those articles from Scarleteen and to share them with your teens. And then to engage in a dialogue around it.
Dawn Serra: You can also share stories about your experiences to make it safe for your teens to then share a little bit about their experiences. It might take some time. The first couple of times you bring this up, they might feel like it’s a trap and that you’re just going to punish them or yell at them or judge them if they admit anything happened. So you might have to demonstrate many times that you’re actually a safe place to turn to when you want to have these conversations. But if you share a little bit about your experience with porn, some of the things you’ve learned in an age appropriate way, it can open the door to make that conversation a little bit safer. But it does have to happen.
So my invitation to you, Ethical Fan, is get comfortable being uncomfortable and know that it’s going to be awkward. If it’s awkward, it means you’re doing it right. Because it means you’re having the conversations. Your kids aren’t going to expect you to be 100% perfect at it or to know exactly what to say. What they’re going to see is the effort. It’s also going to be really helpful if you give them some resources that are written by people like them, which is a lot of what Scarleteen has. There’s a lot of peer education that happens and really interesting sharing. So it feels a little bit less like an adult kind of preaching and more about people that are around the same age having these conversations.
Dawn Serra: I think one of the most important things that we can do is tie porn to things that are a little bit easier to talk about. If we can talk to our kids about the movies that they’re watching, whether it’s the latest Fast and the Furious film or it’s the latest Transformers film or it’s the latest Bruce Willis film – because he’s got a new one coming out that’s all about shoot them up – whatever it is, if you can tie it to your kids and your teens favorite movies and television shows, and then talk about how those get made and how they apply it to real life, that’s a perfect gateway to then tie that into porn. If we can help teens and kids to see that what happens in these movies that’s so fun and so interesting and so engaging and that can feel so real, but we know that it’s not. We know we can’t drive cars that way. We know we can’t steal a bus in the name of justice. We know that all of these things are fabricated and fake and we can teach them that media literacy, then it makes it a lot easier to also take those lessons and apply them to porn. Because the more they understand how things are edited and scripted in mainstream stuff, the more that they can start understanding the same is true in porn.
Also, just reinforcing the idea that there’s a lot of different variety when it comes to bodies and experiences. That the things that we see in movies and in porn often make us feel like we’re not good enough in real life because romance doesn’t happen that way or because kisses don’t feel the way we thought they would. Maybe sex isn’t going to, either. It just gives them a vocabulary and some permission to not feel so tense and anxious, if things don’t work out the way that they thought they did.
Dawn Serra: I think it’s a phenomenal thing that, as a parent, you’re asking this question now. There’s lots of resources available and I would certainly start with Nadine Thornhill and Scarleteen as places to turn, and then just start talking to them about all the media they consume and what it means and how it impacts them. Then, eventually, you’ll be able to turn that into a conversation about porn. When they’re at an age that feels appropriate for the two of you, it might also be an interesting thing to introduce them to the concept of ethical pornography as a more interesting place to turn for erotic content. It might be a really controversial view. But I don’t think that there’s anything wrong with a parent sending a kid off to college with all their book and their meal card and a subscription to a really awesome feminist porn site, because your kid probably isn’t going to spend $20 a month for a Crash Pad membership. But if you’re willing to, just to know they’ve got access to that, I think that’s pretty rad. Now, a lot of people probably disagree with me, but it’s food for thought.
So thank you for the question. I know it’s on a lot of people’s minds. It’s a place where we are, culturally, on so many levels and so many countries, for so many different reasons, failing our young people. This should be something that all adults have the capacity to talk to young people about from the youngest of ages. And we just don’t know how to do that. So we end up in places like this. Or, worse, where nobody ever asks the question. And then they grow up. When they’re 30 or 40 years old realize, maybe this isn’t working for me. So if you can start having these conversations now, you’re going to set them up for much more success. Thank you so much Ethical Fan. If anybody has any other rad resources they want to share, please let me know. I would love to hear from you.
Dawn Serra: I have so many more listener questions from all of you. They’re just sitting here desperately waiting for my answer. I want to, but I know we’re at the end of our hour. I have to go take care of some yummy Patreon bonus content. So don’t forget. If you’re listening, you can support the show on Patreon for as little as $1 a month. But if you subscribe at $3 a month and above, you get access to the weekly bonus content. There’s some other really yummy goodies you can check out. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to either listen to the bonus content from this week or to pledge your $3 and to tune in. Thank you so much for listening. If you want to send in your own questions and stories, head to dawnserra.com and use the contact form because, gosh, do I love hearing from all of you. I’m going to wrap this up, do my Patreon and head back to my very interesting sexuality conference. I will talk to all of you next week. Bye!