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Formidable Femme, aka Sarah B Holliday, is here this week talking about sex toy companies, the ethics of selling sex toys, rejecting the perfect survivor narrative, healing from trauma, plus we field a listener question about abuse.
Sarah is deeply committed to changing the way the sex toy industry operates, and she has loads of ideas about what makes for an ethical company in this field and where companies often fail.
Let’s stop gendered toys and the marketing we use to promote them and instead center marginalized identities and bodies to make sex and pleasure truly inclusive.
In the intro, I also mention the Uma Thurman interview for NY Times and the Daily Beast article about Reid Mihalko. Here’s a spreadsheet with conversations about the Reid situation if you’d like to see what other sex educators are saying.
We also discuss Sarah’s terrific advice to sex toy companies, plus a few books for navigating trauma including “The Body Keeps the Score” and “Healing Sex.”
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
In this episode, Sarah and I talk about:
- Sarah’s research into how to craft a revolutionary model of sex ed in the US.
- What kind of ethics should sex toy companies have? Which businesses are feminist and which are not?
- What was the big turning point that caused Sarah to write a blog post titled, “I am a survivor and I will never support Lelo again.”
- Whenever a sex toy company royally screws up, what can they do to redeem themselves? Or is it even possible to recover from their mistake?
- Sarah’s fantastic blog post, Eight Commitments that Companies can do in 2018, that you should totally check out because #8 is my fave.
- Find out which sex companies are getting it right – in their marketing, their product design, and in their leadership.
- Vibrant, a new-ish sex toy company, has marketing that is completely gender inclusive. Also part of their profits go to support their local Planned Parenthood. YAY Vibrant!
- Sarah also loves She-vibe, based out of Portland. They recently overhauled their website to include a diverse range of people and body types on their website.
- Why now, in the Age of Trump, is it more important to support your local independent sex toy store?
- Advocating for body safe sex toys is part of reproductive justice. When we restrict access to pleasure it is often from the same place as restricting access to sex education and abortion services.
- There has been so many stories about sexual abuse and harassment in the past few months. This has caused some to feel social pressure to speak up about their own experiences. But is there a right way for survivors to share their stories? Sarah explains why she doesn’t expect survivors to forgive if they are not ready to.
- Sam is a long time listener and wrote in with the subject line of “Abusive Relationships”. They had a prior relationship with an abusive partner and now don’t feel safe around other men, even avoiding interacting with them in everyday life. They are currently in therapy but wonders if that is common and what ideas Dawn has that will help her move on.
- We can feel fun and the erotic and connection with platonic relationships.
About Sarah B. Holliday:
Sarah Brynn Holliday (pronouns: she/her) is a queer femme feminist sex blogger, educator, and consultant. She has a background in abortion rights and access, queer and trans liberation, and radical, pleasure-and-trauma-informed sex education.Listen and subscribe to Sex Gets Real
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!
Hey, listeners, it’s Dawn. There is a lot going on in the world right now. And to be really honest, sometimes I struggle with how I’m feeling about it all, what to share, what not to share here on the show, what would contribute to the conversation and what would take away or distract. There are a lot of conversations happening about consent and MeToo, and Time’s Up. Conversations that are long overdue, but they can also feel so uncomfortable and triggering, because there’s such a swell and a wave of these conversations happening. For survivors, it can be tough to open social media and constantly see new articles, new reports, new accounts of sexual abuse, sexual assault, sexual misconduct, rape. At the time that I’m recording this, the New York Times just released an article about Uma Thurman and her abuse at the hands of Harvey Weinstein and Quentin Tarantino. It’s really clear how hurt she is, how angry she is, and how long she’s held that. As someone who holds similar stories, it’s exhausting. It makes me sad that so many people have to hold these things for so long. Because it’s not safe to speak up for so many people in so many instances.
Dawn Serra: I also want to name that many of you may have seen an article in The Daily Beast a week or two ago, where Kelly Shebari named Reid Mihalko as someone who had sexually assaulted her. And in the aftermath, there have been a number of other people who have come forward about consent issues with Reid. And, while I don’t want to center Reid, what I do want to center is the fact that these conversations can be hard and uncomfortable, and emotional. There are a lot of people who are trying very hard to center survivors and to make safe spaces for these conversations to be happening.
I 100% believe Uma and Kelly, and every other person who comes forward to talk about the things that they have been subjected to, because of our culture that makes it okay for people with power to take advantage of marginalized folks and people with less power. That is fundamentally the definition of rape culture. I will have a link on sexgetsreal.com/ep199 for this episode and in the show notes to the article about Reid, as well as some other conversations that are happening. Because I know a lot of you listening are a part of the sex positive communities and we need to be having these very nuanced conversations about harm and power, and what it means to mix power and sex and the potential harm that can happen. I’ll also link to the New York Times article with Uma Thurman so that you can check that out. If you’re feeling angry, I just want to let you know that’s one of the reasons why I’ve been working on this anger workshop for several weeks. I mentioned it on last week’s show, it’s now available for pre order. It’ll come out in a couple of weeks.
Dawn Serra: A lot of us have a lot of anger, that we don’t know how to express, that we’re scared of, that we constantly tap down and avoid, or we use anger as a weapon, because it’s too difficult to feel other feelings. I want to create a place for us to change the relationship that we have with our anger so that it can become a source of power and connection, and boundaries. Because these really challenging conversations, these new dialogues – they’re going to continue happening, and they’re going to become more frequent and louder. We need to be able to protect ourselves and to speak up when it’s safe. And that’s one of the reasons why I just want to be able to contribute to all of us growing in this space. So there’s a link in the show notes for that too. Onto this week’s episode.
I am ridiculously excited about my chat with Formidable Femme, the sex blogger that many of you might be aware of. Her name is Sarah, so you might also know her as Sarah Holliday. We have a really, really deep conversation about the ethics of toy companies and toy manufacturers, feminist sex toy shops, pleasure as something that’s political. We also talk about what it means to be a survivor. Sarah is very interested in overturning the perfect survivor narrative that so many of us feel like we have to abide by – about not taking up too much space or being too upset or too loud. And we also field a listener question about abuse and healing from abuse in relationships. So it is rich and interesting and I am so excited to bring it to you. Sarah is wonderfully eloquent. So let me tell you a little bit about Sarah. Then also, just a heads up our Patreon chat is all about pleasure as resistance, pleasure as political, pleasure as a birthright, especially if you’re marginalized or oppressed in some way. So I hope you’ll check it out. I have a little teaser of our Patreon chat coming up next, then I’ll read you Sarah’s bio so you can learn a little bit more about her and then we’ll jump into the episode. So here’s a little teaser for our Patreon chat.
Sarah Holliday: When we’re thinking about pleasure as resistance as marginalized people, for me as a queer, femme woman, my pleasure flies in the face of my oppressors. It is a blatant, loud, boisterous ‘fuck you’ to the people who want me to stay silent and complacent and politically submissive.
Dawn Serra: Sounds awesome, right? Well anyone who supports at the $3 level and above at patreon.com/sgrpodcast get these yummy weekly bonuses. Last week, I read an erotic story. This week, it’s me and Sarah getting out all about pleasure as political. And, let me tell you a little bit about Sarah and then we’ll jump into the entire episode. So Sarah Brynn Holliday, pronouns she/her, is a queer femme feminist, sex blogger, educator and consultant. She has a background in abortion rights and access, queer and trans liberation, and radical pleasure and trauma-informed sex education. Sarah runs formidablefemme.com, I knew I was going to do that, where she writes about how sexuality intersects with queerness, feminism, depression, and trauma. Much of her work centers around pushing for ethical, equitable feminist-business practice within the sex toy industry; and helping people learn about how they can reclaim sex and pleasure after trauma. Sarah is also a pleasure professional with O.school, a radical inclusive platform for online sex education. So here is my chat with Sarah .
Dawn Serra: Welcome to Sex Gets Real, Sarah. This is going to be a fun hour.
Sarah Holliday: I am so excited. Thank you for having me, Dawn.
Dawn Serra: You’re so welcome. So, a lot of people who are listening may know you from your blog formidablefemme – where you talk all about sex toys and sex toy companies, and kind of the business side of sex toys and pleasure, and you also share a lot about yourself. I’d love to know what got you in a place where you wanted to start blogging about this kind of stuff.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yeah. I love talking about this. So when I was in college, I took a senior seminar on women’s experiences on college campuses, which is just really the coolest thing. And it was very, very feminist, and it was pretty small – about 10 or 12 people. We all chose a topic to write about for our senior thesis at the end and kind of like a capstone – a capstone course. I really wanted to talk about sex ed and how we can revolutionize sex ed on campuses, but also for people all across the country and the world. And, having grown up in a really, really conservative area and having really shoddy sex ed from the start. I was like, “Okay, let me take what I learned in college and run with it.”
So for this class, I wrote my final paper on how to craft a revolutionary model of sex ed in the U.S.. A lot of my work was focusing on sex education online. And through my research, I found all of these incredible sex blogs. I found people talking about sex toys and masturbation, and pleasure and relationships – without any of the stigma or the shame that I was used to seeing. I totally fell in love. I felt like this was a community that I wanted to be a part of. As a staunch feminist, as someone who working in the abortion rights field at the time, knowing I wanted to do more with sex and sexual freedom in general. I was like, “Okay, I love to write. I love talking about sexuality. I want to do what these amazing, incredible people do.”
Sarah Holliday: So in April of 2015 right before I graduated college, as a capstone to my capstone, I started my blog along with my final paper. And it has just flourished since then. So, it really means a lot to me that it evolved out of this final project in college and has now just really grown into this thing that I’m really proud of.
Dawn Serra: That is exciting. I love that you were in school and you were like, “Okay, I can’t even write about this thing.” Then you found all these rad people and you were like, “No, I’m gonna fucking do this.”
Sarah Holliday: Yeah. It’s been a really humbling experience, too. Because I was doing my research and reading these blogs of folks who I am super, super close to now, of these amazing people who are doing this groundbreaking work in the field. And now, we’re part of the same community and we’re friends, and we share space with each other. It just feels really, really special.
Dawn Serra: So you have a background in working in abortion rights and reproductive rights. Now, you also have this experience of the past couple of years of blogging about sex toys, and pleasure; and a lot around the ethics of sex toy companies and feminist sex toy shops, which I know we’re going to get into. But I’m wondering from when you started your blog to now, how has it changed? What did you start out writing about and where are you now, and what sets you on fire and you really love diving into?
Sarah Holliday: Yeah, so I started out pretty much just doing sex toy reviews. I really wasn’t sure of my place within the blogging community at first. I thought, “So I’m just starting to experiment with sex toys. I like them. Let me start reviewing them,” because I saw a lot of people doing that and I did that for about a year. And throughout that time, I was learning more about companies and about body-safe sex toys, and about what kind of ethics that sex toy companies should have, which businesses were feminists and which were not. It all turned when LELO, back in 2016–
Dawn Serra: I know where you’re going. Please continue.
Sarah Holliday: Very knowing, “Oh,” yes. So it all changed in 2016 when LELO – not only announced that they were hiring Charlie Sheen, a famed domestic abuser to be the face of their new condom, HEX, but also that this condom was faulty. You couldn’t tell when it was compromised. So, here you have a supposedly feminist sex toy company making unsafe condoms and promoting an abuser at the same time. So, I’m a survivor and this was a really big turning point for me. I thought I’ve been using LELO toys for about a year. I’ve been using other toys and experimenting. And, I’ve been thinking a little bit about company ethics throughout this time, but this is unacceptable and I know that I have to do something.
So, I think it was the same day or the day after I wrote a blog that’s called “I am a survivor and I will never support LELO again.” And I marked that as the start of what I do now on my blog and to my work, in general, which is holding sex toy companies accountable to an ethical, equitable, feminist standard of business practice.
Dawn Serra: So I’m wondering, if now there’s other problems with the LELO in some of the ways that they design their toys and things like that. Is there something that LELO could do that would position you where you’d be like, “Okay, maybe they’ve changed and maybe I can investigate their new ethics and be open to them as a company again.” What would have to change in order for you to say, “Alright, they have grown in a way that feels ethical for me and it’s not just lip service.” What would you want to see?
Sarah Holliday: That’s a really, really great question. And it’s one that I’ve thought a lot about. Whenever a sex toy company royally screws up, I kind of weigh my options and think, how can they redeem themselves? Can they redeem themselves? I think that sometimes a sex toy companies can make amends. However, in LELO’s case, the grievances against them are just too great. They would have to completely overhaul their entire company for me to ever consider supporting them in any way. And, I say this because they have done a lot of things that don’t, at all, jive with a company that is taking steps to try to be better.
So for example, when folks started to call them out for all of the really awful things that happened with the condom and the Charlie Sheen issue, they just ignored people. They never truly addressed our concerns. They even had a launch party where they had a giant sculpture of the condom and they printed “respect” at the bottom of the condom. And when somebody asked, “Hey, what does this word respect mean? Who was that for?” The company rep told them that it was intended to be for the man who wears it. You respect the man who wears it. Yeah, gross. We never got any kind of explanation for that. All the structural issues with the condom have never been addressed. And what the real big sticking point for me is, there was never an apology that was suitable. There was never an apology, in general. But certainly not one that addressed the harms that LELO did to survivors in the community, who may be triggered and hurt by seeing Charlie Sheen be the face of this new condom.
Sarah Holliday: So I say all of this because there are some companies that have really fantastic apologies. And that really say, “I looked at this. I looked at what we did. I’m actively taking really big steps to make amends and to make my company better.” I’m not at all in a position to say that once a company screws up once, that’s it. Because I do believe that we can push companies to be and do much better. I mean, that’s the work that I do. But in LELO’s case, there is just not a way that I could support them, because of what they’ve done without any accountability.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. You have this post that you put out a couple of weeks ago, that I will link to in the show notes called, “Eight Commitments Sex Toy Companies Can Make in 2018.” And your final one is the best. It actually made me laugh out loud. But, if it’s okay with you, I’d love to read it to everybody because I think it builds on this really beautifully. And I’d love to talk a little bit about it.
Sarah Holliday: Yeah, please do.
Dawn Serra: So, you have all these things about degendering your marketing and paying sex toy bloggers and getting rid of abusers. Number eight is,
“Overhaul your entire company. Saved the biggest one for last, right? This goes miles and miles beyond any individual suggestion I’ve made in this post or last year’s commitment post. Put plainly, this is about getting your shit right and putting marginalized and oppressed people front and center. We deserve to be running your company, designing your products, and directing your marketing campaigns. Not just included in these facets of your business for appearances or for the sake of diversity. True inclusion requires direct action. Keeping us on the sidelines is not acceptable. In 2018, I want to see more opportunities for people of color LGBTQ+ people, disabled people, immigrants, sex workers, fat people, and people of marginalized genders to run the show. I hope you do, too.”
What a bold statement. Oh, my God, what a bold statement. So when you think about a company that is actively involving marginalized and oppressed folks, in their marketing, in their product design, in the running of the company itself – who is getting it right?
Sarah Holliday: That’s a really great question. So, there are two kind of categories of shops and retailers that I see getting this right. Some are certainly on the way and I wouldn’t say that most companies include all of these things. But, when we think about it, what really comes to mind for me here is small, independent feminist sex shops, and also online feminist retailers. So for example, one of my favorite favorite online retailers is called Vibrant. They are a new-ish sex toy company. And their marketing is completely gender inclusive. Part of their profits go to support their local Planned Parenthood. They didn’t just start their companies and say, “Oh, we’re going to gender our toys and then we’re only going to get it right when somebody calls us out.” They knew what to do from the beginning and they did it, and that was really incredible. When I saw them come on the scene immediately I was like, “I want to be affiliated with y’all. You are awesome.” Because it’s really rare to see a company be so gender inclusive and also center queer people and trans people in their work.
So many of the issues that I see with sex toy companies relate to the way that they really unnecessarily gender toys. And also say that there are categories like lesbian sex toys or gay sex toys, which are just not a thing. So, when I think of really awesome companies, I think of Vibrant.
Sarah Holliday: I also think of SheVibe. One of my favorite companies run by incredible friendly people who I really, really have come to adore; who recently overhauled their entire website and took a really, really long time to listen to the concerns of bloggers and folks in the community to get it right. And to include a wide range of people on their website and in their illustrations. If you go to their site, it looks very fun or lots of illustrations. And the illustrations have become much more diverse and they center the people who actually need to be centered in sex toy marketing like, I was talking about with my posts, and they listened to community concerns. They owned up to the fact that they did not center the folks who needed to be centered all the time, and they made changes. And that meant a lot to me. They are also incredibly supportive of the sex blogging community, which is also just a side note because I just really love them.
The other group of shops doing this, like I said, are going to be feminist sex shops. What comes to mind for me is Sugar in Baltimore, Maryland. I recently taught a class there and their owner, Jack, is really committed to social justice and to calling out things when they happen in the industry. They stopped selling LELO when all of this happened. Shops like Sugar are really committed to centering equity and feminism in their business practice. And I really find this the most in small, independent feminist sex shops. Because they have an investment in their community. I recently wrote a post as well about why supporting feminist sex shops, right now in the age of Trump, is so important. And one of the reasons is because feminist sex shops center marginalized people in their workforce, in their customer-base, in the workshops that they teach. And when you support feminist sex shops, you’re also supporting people who are most targeted by the current administration.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I’m so glad you brought up the gendering of sex toys, because it drives me bananas that we have pleasure products that could work for so many bodies in so many ways. But because the packaging, the colors, and the marketing around these products, they feel like they’re designed for specific people with specific bodies and genders. And it’s just ridiculous. I mean, there’s no reason that any number of different vibrators can’t be used by someone with a penis or with all kinds of disabilities, and all kinds of different genders. And yet, because we say it’s a female vibrator and on the box it’s pink with a super skinny woman with huge tits sitting on it – It just makes this gender essentialism so much worse.
I mean, we have an opportunity to be increasing access to pleasure for people regardless of their body and gender. And, because of the way so many of these toys are marketed and made, and then sold, it kind of drives home the idea that only certain types of people want certain types of toys and experiences; which just further others everybody. It’s like, “Ugh, we just need to let go of this.”
Sarah Holliday: It is endlessly frustrating. To me, that is one of the most glaring missteps of a lot of sex toy companies out there. And it some people just can’t get it right and it’s really frustrating. Something that I always like to say is that, all sex toys are for people of any or no gender. And I also think that all sex toys can be solo toys and they can also be couples’ toys. There are so many unnecessarily categorized sex toys as, “Oh, this is a couple’s toy.” When in reality, any sex toy can be a couple’s toy. And we can really depart from this idea of having to buy a $200 vibrator to be able to have fun with your partner or your partners. It’s an issue of accessibility. It is a financial equity issue, that we are only marketing these super expensive toys as couples toys, when you can get a fantastic dildo for 40 bucks that’s body safe. You can get a great vibrator for $60 or $70 that’s body safe that you can use with your partner.
Dawn Serra: I totally agree. I totally agree. And I think that’s one of the things that I just want people listening to take away is, oftentimes when we have to make choices about doing something that’s ethical and doing something that’s financially feasible for us, they’re at odds. The world is just structured capitalism in a way that often makes access to the things that we really want to support super challenging, because they’re not the Amazons of the world or the Walmart’s of the world. And, I’m so happy that you said this in that we can support feminist sex toy shops and companies that are adhering to these beautiful ethics and centering marginalize people.
We can often find something in our budget, especially if we’re willing to let go a little bit of what we should be buying or what we should be wanting. If we’re not tied to getting that specific couple’s toy, and instead, we’re open to trying something – that dildo that you mentioned or that vibrator that you mentioned for $50 or $60, you can still have so much incredible pleasure and it can feel really good. That might be challenging for some people’s budgets, too. But it’s a heck of a lot better than the hundred and $150 price tag or the $200 price tag that often comes on some of these higher end toys with remote controls and gadgets and stuff.
Sarah Holliday: I completely agree with you, Dawn. It is incredibly frustrating to see sex toy companies only market certain toys as being “for couples.” When in reality, it’s any toy. And, to see some companies that don’t have great ethics only offer financially-accessible toys if they’re made out of toxic materials. And not informing consumers that, “Hey, this toy that is maybe $15 or $20 is actually really not safe for you to use inside or on your body. But, we’re going to sell it to you anyway, because we want to make a buck.”
One thing I talk a lot about is about how advocating for body safe sex toys is part of health justice. Because you have these companies that are just trying to make a buck at the expense of consumer safety, when there are other options out there, but that aren’t made to seem like options. It’s just frustrating.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. And, I know one of the things that you mentioned is, how especially important it is in the current political climate that we think about these things. That we think about the fact that our pleasure, especially if we’re marginalized in some way, is so paramount to us being able to take up space and claim our autonomy, and just recognize, “This body is mine. And no matter what the folks in DC vote, no matter what the rest of the world votes about my access to health care or to resources, my body is my own. I get to celebrate it how I want to.” Because, when we price pleasure products in the $150-$200 range, we’re basically saying only certain types of people deserve access to pleasure. And so, I love that you’re tying this to this bigger political picture.
I know one of the things that you mentioned before we hopped on, that I love to so much, is because you have a background in abortion rights, that often the same people that we are restricting access to sex education, to sex toys, to pleasure; we’re also restricting our access to things like abortion and reproductive choices. And I’d love to talk about that a little bit.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yeah.
Dawn Serra: So what are you seeing in those spaces? Because it’s a topic that I think a lot of people get uncomfortable talking about. But we need to be able to talk about the fact that when we restrict access to pleasure, it’s often from the exact same place that we’re then restricting access to abortion and reproductive rights.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, absolutely. I see these things as so, so connected. Because fundamentally, they are about sexual freedom, autonomy, consent, and agency. If you think about it, if you think about people like Trump or other conservatives, other extremists who seek to restrict sexual freedom and autonomy, they all have a very similar agenda. The same people who want to make abortion illegal again in the United States – a completely terrifying idea that would harm many, many people’s lives – are the same people who want to promote abstinence only sex education. The same people that refuse to hold perpetrators of sexual violence accountable. And, one thing that I write and talk about a lot is we haven’t seen Trump legislate on feminist sex shops. He hasn’t written an executive order about that. He hasn’t come out on a campaign speech and said, “Vibrators are the devil.” But, it’s pretty easy to infer his thoughts and ideas about people of marginalized genders, especially seeking and feeling sexual pleasure. Because of his views on sexual freedom issues in general. It’s really frustrating and I see an impact on feminist sex shops. I see an impact on sex toys because of this administration. And you have people who are seeking to restrict autonomy, that means pleasure, that also means abortion access.
Like you mentioned, I have a history of working in the abortion rights and access movement for about six years now. And, I can tell you with certainty, it’s the same people and it is incredibly, incredibly tiring. Because folks who are seeking to restrict abortion access, are also seeking to do away with any kind of comprehensive sex education. How are people supposed to know about their bodies? How are they supposed to be informed about the choices that they can make about their bodies if they don’t have comprehensive, accurate sex ed? So, it’s all connected.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. And it’s the same set of values that’s also trying to make porn either illegal and/or something that you can only access through a paywall and net neutrality, which is going to make it nearly impossible for small, independent businesses; especially around sexuality and pleasure to get any kind of traction or access to their websites. I mean, people won’t even be able to find their websites if some of these changes to the way that Internet works in the states happens. And I want people to feel safe in their bodies. I want people to know that these things are all fundamentally tied together.
I’ve had so many amazing conversations on this show about racism and trans rights and disability rights and fat activism, and how it all ties back to the ways that we experience pleasure and sex. And the same goes for reproductive rights and the conversations that are had around who gets to advertise companies, who gets access to what kinds of health care. I mean, it’s just all so closely tied together and it’s really easy to bury our heads in the sand when we don’t have problems with access to those things. But it’s such a global issue, and I love that you’re naming it and putting it out there because it’s so important.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yeah. It is important. All of it is connected. Trump’s restrictions of sexual freedom are related to all of the other bigoted views that he holds. His white supremacy is endless, terrorizing of black, brown, and indigenous people. He is trying to deport numerous undocumented folks. It’s all in-service of his ideals to restrict human rights, to restrict autonomy and it’s just all – it’s a connected web.
Dawn Serra: It’s reinforcing patriarchy and capitalism and colonialism, which can be really big words that a lot of people don’t understand. But at the most basic level, it’s basically only certain types of people deserve access to the things they need for happiness, pleasure, and their bodies. That’s, at such a fundamental level, terrible. It’s a human rights issue and we need to name that.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yeah. And only certain people are allowed to make informed choices about themselves and their bodies because of the restrictions that Trump has placed. Because of education, because of this and that. If you don’t know, you don’t know. And it’s incredibly frustrating.
Dawn Serra: So for people listening, I just want to throw out there that you and I are going to have our separate chat just for Patreon listeners, all about how we can use our own pleasure as an act of resistance. And, I think it’s going to be really fun to roll around in sex education and how our orgasms can be acts of resistance. So, people who support the show on Patreon, definitely stay tuned. I’d love to shift directions just a little bit.
Sarah Holliday: Sure.
Dawn Serra: You wrote this beautiful piece called, “My Abuser Is Dead and I Still Don’t Forgive Him.” And longtime listeners of the show know that I’m a survivor. I’ve had a number of guests on who are survivors, you’re a survivor as well. And this post is so raw and so real in talking about, ultimately, how you don’t forgive your abuser and that you don’t need to forgive your abuser in order to move on and to have a fulfilling, connected, beautiful life. That forgiveness is not required in order to grow and to heal. And I’d love to talk a little bit about that.
I know you said one of the things you’re feeling super passionate about right now is overturning some of the ideas we have around what it means to be that perfect survivor. Can you talk about that a little bit?
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yes, I’d love to. Thank you for bringing that up. So like you mentioned, I wrote this post a couple of months ago that came to me in the wake of all of these survivors coming forward. And along with them, the expectation that survivors must forgive their abusers. Once I wrote this post, many people reached out to me and said, ‘There’s no such expectation.” But there definitely is. I have felt it. We see famous people who are issuing apologies and lots of people say, “Oh, well, that’s enough. They should forgive this person. This is fine now.” And it doesn’t have to be fine. A lot of the work that I do, and not only that a lot of what I feel in my soul and what is really important to me, as a person is trying my hardest to free myself of the expectation of being a “good survivor,” and rejecting the “perfect survivor,” ideal. And I’m really affirming for myself that I don’t have to adhere to anyone’s narrative of healing but my own and the same for any survivors listening – that you don’t have to adhere to anyone’s narrative of healing, but your own. So there’s a lot to kind of dive into there.
One of the most pressing things for me is, like you were mentioning, the expectation to forgive, the expectation that survivors should say, “It’s okay,” and move on. There seems to be this script that if something happens to someone, they can immediately name it, then they can go to therapy and then they’ll be okay. And that is simply not how it works. It took me a long time to name my trauma. It took me a long time to name that. Yeah, I am an abuse survivor. And I did not at all have an easy path to get there and I’m still on my healing journey. It hasn’t ended for me. I really want to reject this really pressing, really stressful, and really invading idea that survivors have to put on a face and say, “It happened. It’s okay.” Because we don’t have to.
Sarah Holliday: Also, really along with that, I think a lot of other things too. We don’t have to stay calm or be agreeable. We’re allowed to be angry. We’re allowed to be incensed. We’re allowed to talk about it. But we also aren’t required to share our story for anyone who might ask. I’m sure you’ve seen and heard, and same for your listeners that there have been a lot, a lot, a lot of people coming forward in the last few months. And that has put pressure on other survivors to speak up. But we’re not required to share our trauma or to bear our pain for any stranger or friend, even partners or family members. I really would love to just strip off this idea that you have to adhere to society’s idea of a perfect, quiet, docile survivor to be good.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, because we kind of have this cultural story, especially for women and feminine-identified folks and it’s not exclusively but mostly put on the shoulders of people who are feminine, of our biggest fear is being labeled messy, dramatic, or someone with baggage. As a survivor, you automatically adopt those things and we so want to reject that. We don’t want to be seen as having baggage. We don’t want to be seen as being messy, when in fact, that might be exactly what we are. And I hate the term baggage. I mean, I think experience is much better word.
We, as a culture, are terrified of women being messy and of being loud and dramatic and of taking up space. And so, as survivors often that’s kind of doubly so, things are messy and they are ugly, and they suck. We often have this extra burden of needing to be very quiet or silent or downplay that. And this invitation of, “You don’t have to pretend like you’re okay. You don’t have to play along and pretend like you’ve moved on. You don’t have to explain yourself or share your story if you don’t want to.” Those can be such scary things to think about. But ultimately, being able to decide what you need for your healing is so important, as scary as it might be.
Sarah Holliday: Oh, absolutely. I really love everything that you said and I wholeheartedly agree. And I think along with this same theme of, “You should just do whatever feels right and feels good for you and your healing.” Whether that means speaking out loudly or taking a step back. I think it’s also important to allow yourself to set boundaries with other people. Something that is really hard for me is setting boundaries with fellow survivors. As a trauma-informed educator, as someone who does workshops on this, I feel like I have to be on a lot of the time. And that’s also the same of folks who don’t do that and who are survivors as well.
There’s an expectation that if we share our story, that if we’re survivors, that that automatically means that we’re always in a place to hold space or provide support for other survivors. And that’s just not true. I cannot support everyone. I can’t do everything. Neither can you, neither can anyone listening. And it is okay to prioritize yourself. But for me, this has really been the hardest part of trying to break free from this idea of the perfect survivor narrative. Because it’s so I mean – folks who were assigned female at birth are socialized to constantly provide support for other people and to never put ourselves first. And that also shows up, too, in conversations of trauma. And sometimes we just can’t. There’s a lot of guilt around that. There is for me and I’m still wading through it. But I do think that’s important to mention, as well, when we’re talking about trying to break free from this narrative. That it’s okay not to engage in discussion, even if it’s with our peers who might need our support. We have to put ourselves first and we’re allowed to. But I say this knowing that it sounds easy when I’m just saying it here, but it is really really hard and I am kind of muddling through that; and it is messy in trying to acknowledge that my mess, my baggage is okay – also comes with more mess and more baggage because then I’m like, “Well, shit. Now I feel bad.” It’s complicated, but I think it’s important to examine all the nuances of this.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. So if you’re up for it, I have a listener question that is in a very similar vein about being someone who’s struggling after an abusive relationship, and I was wondering if you’d help me field it.
Sarah Holliday: Sure.
Dawn Serra: Okay. So Sam wrote in with the subject line of “Abusive Relationships.”
“Hi there. I want to just say I’ve been listening to your podcast for a few years and it is fantastic, so thank you. Proper sex exploration and education for adults is sorely lacking. And I feel this has a huge and lasting impact on relationships. I’ve only ever been in one relationship. It was with an older man. He was controlling, jealous, emotionally, and sexually abusive, and tried to force me to be dependent on him. He also sexually assaulted me and a friend of mine while we were dating. My question is, how can I feel more comfortable around men? I thankfully have a job which allows me to rarely interact with them. I have never been alone with a man in the two years since I left this guy. When I have to interact with men, I cut the conversation short and sometimes involuntarily blush and shake. On occasion, this has even been mistaken for sexual interest. I’ve considerably limited my social interactions since this experience. I’ve ended several friendships with people who tried to tell me he was a good person or who blamed me for his abuse, because hearing about it made them so uncomfortable. I’m so lonely and I don’t want to go without sex or relationships for the rest of my life. But I am so afraid of other people. I’m in therapy, but it doesn’t seem to be helping much. So I’m wondering if you have any ideas, suggestions or even reading materials that might help me move on from this. Thank you so much, Sam.”
Sarah Holliday: Well, first of all, Sam, thank you so much for sharing your story with us and for sharing this part of yourself. So, I have a couple of thoughts and then Dawn, if you have any thoughts, I’d love to hear yours as well. So I completely relate to this question. After my abuse, interacting with and being around cis men was really hard for me and sometimes it is still hard. And I think, first of all, being gentle with yourself and recognizing that that’s okay can be really powerful. You mentioned that you’re in therapy. So you may have done some work on this, but we were just talking about, it’s okay to not be okay. And I know that society places all of these heavy burdens on us. But, you are allowed to be gentle with yourself and to do what feels okay and good for you in the moment. If that doesn’t match what society thinks it should, then I just want you to be gentle with yourself, and know that it’s okay to work on this and that you’re not alone in having these feelings.
One thing that I do want to offer is – what I’m hearing here, as well, is that is that intimacy is something that you may struggle with, with men like you’re saying in your question. And what I try to do when I am feeling this way or when I’m working with people who are feeling this way, is redefining what intimacy might look like. So much we have this cultural script that if we meet someone that we like, that we immediately have to move to sex or the relationship isn’t worthy. Or that we, in some way, have to prove ourselves by having sex with the person. But, I would really invite you to think about what intimacy might mean for you that doesn’t involve sex, even though it certainly can.
Sarah Holliday: Intimacy is really broad. And I know that thinking about being intimate with someone, after this experience that you’ve had – it can be really, really terrifying and really daunting. But, maybe making a list of things that feel good to you with another person that doesn’t involve any sexual touch could be a helpful tool for you as you move forward. So for example, sharing thoughts and feelings with partners and friends, being vulnerable and communicating. Even having your arm around someone on the couch while you watch TV – all things that feel intimate but don’t have the weight and the expectation of, “I have to perform this certain way.”
Again, it’s not always an easy answer or an overall answer, but I do think that it can be helpful to reframe what intimacy can look like when we’re focused on healing. And there’s no rush and there’s no schedule, and there doesn’t have to be any end goal or destination. When you’re thinking about relationships or men, or whatever you’re thinking about. Sex doesn’t have to be the end goal. You can think about intimacy and closeness, without that as well. So, Dawn, I’d love to hear what you think about that and about the question.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think we have such strong cultural stories about what it means to be in relationship, to be sexual, to be normal. And oftentimes, those things don’t fit and we might not want to admit that they don’t fit. But for a variety of reasons because of disabilities or a body changing or our needs, or whatever it is. The more that all of us can start examining those stories and realizing that we get to decide for ourselves, the kinds of lives and relationships and experiences that we want to cultivate. I think the less suffering we have when we confront one of these situations. So I love the invitation of examining what intimacy means, what pleasure means. Finding ways to do it that feels safe, instead of trying to force yourself into these situations that feel really terrifying.
I also just want to say, in addition, and I know you mentioned this, too, of – I think one of the hardest things about being a survivor is realizing that things will never be the same. I think that’s something I still grapple with. There’s still points when something comes up and my knee jerk reaction is, “But, I don’t want to be this way. I don’t want this to be hard for me. I don’t want to be triggered by this.” And that place is a place that can cause an awful lot of suffering and cruelty towards self, and making choices that aren’t the best for me. Because I don’t want that to be my truth. And I’ve gotten so much better at that over the years, but it has taken years of thinking about that.
Dawn Serra: I spent years after the first time that I was assaulted, spending very little time with cis men because I was so uncomfortable around them. I just didn’t feel safe. That just had to be my story for a while. I don’t feel safe. And, prioritizing my safety is one of the most important things that we can do for ourselves. So, it can be a slow process. It can be a frustrating process, and we can’t force ourselves through it. I think something else that’s been so helpful for me is doing a lot of research about trauma and understanding the ways that trauma impacts our body in a very physical way. Trauma is not in our head. Some of it is, but trauma lives deep in our bodies. And, what the research has found is that often, talk therapy doesn’t get us into our bodies where the trauma sits. It’s still staying in our head and there’s some fantastic books and work out there around trauma and the body that you might want to check out.
I think Bessel van der Kolk’s book “The Body Keeps the Score” is a fantastic place to start. Anything by Peter Levine. And also thinking about other types of therapy modalities like for people specifically who have a history of abuse and trauma, EMDR has been shown to be really effective. I’m currently working with a Somatic Experiencing therapist or an SE therapist. And, so much of what we’re doing is – I spend a tremendous amount of time not in my body. Part of that is because of my trauma, which has contributed to my anxiety and panic disorder. And part of it is just for lots of other reasons like being fat and in a body I didn’t want to be in for lots of my life. But I spend a tremendous amount of time not in my body because my body doesn’t feel safe. And it’s hard to be in our bodies and present when we don’t feel safe. What I’m hearing from Sam is, “When I’m around men, I shake and I blush, and I feel unsafe.” And that’s not a place where we can be playful and open, and curious and creating relationships from a place of strength and self awareness. That’s survival mode.
Dawn Serra: With somatic experiencing, I’m slowly and I mean, so slowly – and I think that’s something else that’s tough for people to hear – really slowly, starting to find places in ways that it’s not only safe to be in my body, but maybe there’s joy in being in my body in certain ways and in situations, and how can I cultivate more of that? And the more I can create these safe places inside of myself from this very embodied place, then eventually, someday not anytime soon, I’ll start being able to rewrite the places that hold the trauma.
So, I think one of the hardest things is just – you’re here. We might have to grieve and rage, and maybe not feel things for a little while, but there is going to have to come a reckoning at some point of, “This thing happened to me and I didn’t want it. I didn’t choose it. I don’t like it. But I’m here and I can’t be anywhere else.” And then finding support, both in friends and family and also professionally, that can help you with the abuse and the trauma that you carry. But I love this invitation of: “Maybe there’s other ways,” like you were saying Sarah, “Of finding human connection and being touched, and feeling close to people without it feeling so high stakes or feeling so unsafe.” Because unfortunately after abuse, a lot of things can feel unsafe. So, I think Bessel van der Kolk’s book is a great one. Also, Staci Heines has a book called “Healing Sex” that’s specifically for survivors of abuse and sexual trauma, and how to have a sexual relationship with yourself after that. So that might be worth it.
Sarah Holliday: One other resource that I’m thinking of as well is a “Yes, no, maybe list.” Now, these can be helpful either just for yourself to figure out what feels good for your body or you can fill it out with a partner or partners. When my partner and I first started dating, we filled out a Yes, no, maybe list that my friend Bex who runs the blog, “Bex Talks Sex” created. And it is incredibly comprehensive and it was a really big inventory of what feels good in my body and what doesn’t feel good in my body? It includes an incredible range of things that you may not even think of as a sex act or an intimate act. When I was going through it, I completely had to re-shift like, “Oh, wow. I can really think about if holding hands feels good or I can think about if this kind of kiss or touch feels good.” So, I would recommend that. I can ask Dawn to link it for you and that can be a really helpful resource just in general. But especially for survivors to figure out what kind of touch and intimacy feels good to them.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. And I also want to name because you brought up Bex. One of the things that I love talking about with Bex when they were on the show and also Luna Matatas was just on the show, is we can experience fun and pleasure and the erotic with platonic connections. And so, even though Sam says, “I want to have relationships and be able to experience sex.” And of course, we can want those things and hold those things for ourselves. But until you’re ready, which there is no rush and you are not broken if it takes you awhile to get ready, you can absolutely be seeking friends and acquaintances and community with people that feel safe for you. And maybe that’s women, maybe that’s queer folks, maybe that’s hiring professionals. But you can still be cultivating sexual experiences and pleasure, and intimacy and touch in a platonic way. That might be a nice, kind of lower stakes approach to getting to still feel like your sexual and erotic self is being expressed without it having to be that higher stakes, “Oh god. I’ve got to find someone to be in a relationship with and men make me feel scared.” What’s an easier way to approach that? And that might be one of them.
Sarah Holliday: Yeah, I love that too. It’s great.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, me too. So we’re at the end of our hour and we are going to head off to record our little Patreon chat. But before we do that, can you share with everyone who listened how they can stay in touch with you online?
Sarah Holliday: Oh, yeah. My website is formidablefemme.com. My Twitter is @SarahBHoll That’s SARAHBHOLL. My Instagram is @formidablefemme.
Dawn Serra: Yay. Thank you so much for doing this with me and for being here.
Sarah Holliday: Yeah, thank you, Dawn. This is excellent.
Dawn Serra: Well, to everybody listening, thank you so much for tuning in. I will have all of Sarah’s links, plus the books I mentioned, linked in the show notes for this episode. Of course you can go to dawnserra.com to submit a question and a story, and also to support the show on Patreon, to check out past episodes. So, thank you so much for listening and for tuning in and I will talk to you next week.
Dawn Serra: A huge thanks to The Vocal Few, the married duo behind the music featured in this week’s intro and outro. Find them at vocalfew.com. Head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support the show and get awesome weekly bonuses.
As you look towards the next week, I wonder what will you do differently that rewrites an old story, revitalizes a stuck relationship or helps you to connect more deeply with your pleasure?