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This week is a little different from the normal show.
First up, I field a few listener questions about finding out you may have herpes and hepatitis C after a partner cheated and how to become a sex educator. NRE isn’t only for relationships – we can also get high on our dreams and take huge risks when we’re caught up in the excitement and desire.
Then, the tables are flipped and I get interviewed by Parijat Deshpande about navigating sex and connection when you have a physical situation like a high-risk pregnancy where intercourse is off the table for a period of time.
It’s a fun chat that has lots of great information that can apply to chronic illness or post-surgery situations, even though we’re specifically talking about pregnancy.
I offer lots of script examples to help having difficult conversations, so grab a notepad and jot down some notes on how to have those conversations.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
In this episode, you’ll hear Dawn Serra and Parijat Deshpande talk about:
- A listener’s friend who is a lesbian and recently found out her ex (who cheated on her) tested positive for hepatitis and herpes. How do you talk about this and live with it? STIs are so common and yet, support is still so important because of all the myths. Make sure you listen to Sarah Mueller talk about STIs and also check out this blog post all about living with and talk about STIs.
- Check out this Mayo Clinic page on Hepatitis C and sexual transmission. Also, they have information about the new treatment that’s available.
- Playboy.com’s article (I said The Atlantic in the episode) on monogamy and STIs.
- Lucy wrote in about feeling desperate, depressed, and in need of a huge change. What does it take to be a sex educator? Should she leave her career in IT with the steady income? How can she get out of a life she doesn’t love to live her way into her dream?
- How NRE for a person is just like NRE about our dreams – we can feel so desperate to chase this feeling that we take huge risks without considering the reality. Instead, if we can sit in the discomfort and allow it to move through, other feelings will eventually come up so you can make better decisions for yourself.
- So many of us are struggling around intimacy, and it’s time we start talking about sex.
- Parijat and the high-risk pregnancy moms she works with aren’t sure how to navigate sex and intimacy when they’re on bed rest.
- Parijat and Dawn brainstorm a bunch of ideas around tapping into your sexuality and sexual energy in a playful way that doesn’t involve intercourse and physical sexual experiences.
- Using sex and sexual fantasy as an escape from super stressful times in our lives. How creative and flirty can you get? Can you give yourself that permission to have a little fun?
- How pregnancy can change your body and make you feel so not sexy. The good news is that whether you’re 9 months pregnant or post baby or just getting older, your body is still capable of feeling incredible pleasure. You just have to give yourself that permission to feel it.
- The power of small, daily rituals of connection to always have a way to turn towards and connect with a partner, no matter how stressful or busy things become.
About Dawn Serra
Dawn Serra is a therapeutic Body Trust coach and pleasure advocate. As a white, cis, middle class, queer, fat, survivor, Dawn’s work is a fiercely compassionate invitation for each of us to deepen our relationships with our bodies and our pleasure as an antidote to the trauma, disconnection, and isolation so many of us feel. Your pleasure matters. Your body is wise. Dawn’s work is all about creating spaces and places for you to explore what that means on your terms. To learn more, visit dawnserra.com or follow Dawn on Instagram.
Dawn is also the creator of the annual Explore More Summit.
About Parijat Deshpande
Parijat Deshpande is the leading perinatal wellness expert who specializes in working with women during a high-risk pregnancy. She educates and guides women on how to manage their stress and anxiety so they can have healthier pregnancies, decrease their risk of preterm birth and give their baby a healthy start to life. Parijat received her Bachelor’s of Science degree in Psychology with High Honors from University of California, Berkeley, after which she earned her Masters’ of Science degree in Clinical Psychology from San Francisco State University. She is a clinically trained therapist, a women’s wellness expert and a sought-after speaker on the impact of stress on health and wellness. She has over 4 years of experience as a Psychology Lecturer UC Berkeley and is the founder of MySahana, a South Asian mental health nonprofit. Parijat is also a certified wellness coach, a certified stress management coach and a certified marriage educator.
You can find Parijat at parijatdeshpande.com and on Twitter, Instagram, and YouTube.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: Dawn Serra here with this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. First of all, I just want to say a huge thank you. All of you have been sending such amazing emails and questions, and being engaged on Twitter, and it’s incredible. Every time I get a question, it makes me super excited to do research or reach out to new experts and make new connections, and having all of you be so engaged. Part of this experience makes me excited to wake up every single day.
Also, this episode is a little different. The reason is, a couple of months ago, I connected with a colleague and an entrepreneur group who works with high risk pregnancies. She supports folks who are either in a high risk pregnancy and dealing with things like bedrest and/or the aftermath of a high risk pregnancy, and what it’s like when you bring baby home and you’ve had to deal with all of this stress. She really wanted to chat with me about sex and intimacy. Because as we all know, since your listeners of this podcast, talking about sex is something we don’t really do very well. She wanted some advice for high risk pregnancy and new parents around intimacy and touch; and ways to be sexually connected, if maybe you can’t actually engage in physical sexual activities.
Dawn Serra: So a lot of the advice that I offer during that chat is perfect for people with chronic illness, chronic pain, cancer, recent injuries and surgeries. So a lot of the advice is actually pretty global. But the interview was so juicy and I loved it so much. We had such great energy. They wanted to find a way to fold it in to the podcast. The talk is about 35 minutes. So what I’m going to do is for the first half of this episode, I’m going to field a couple of your amazing juicy questions. Then for the second half of the episode, it’s actually going to be like a co-interview, but mostly me being interviewed around intimacy issues and touch, and creating a relationship that thrives through a really stressful event. So I adore the chat, I hope that you will stick around and listen to it, and share it with anyone that you might know who is going through or has been through a high risk pregnancy.
Before that, there’s questions waiting for me, because y’all have some amazing questions and you get so vulnerable and share so much. Sometimes I get an email, and I have to sit with it for the rest of the day because I’m so in awe of how brave some of you are, and how much you share with me, and the pain that you’re willing to let me see. It’s just phenomenal. Let’s get started.
Dawn Serra: So the first question I’m going to answer is from Katie, the subject line is “NEED HELP ASAP!” All caps. It says, “Hey, Dawn. It’s Katie from good old Alaska. I really need some help. A good friend of mine from high school might be coming positive for hepatitis C and herpes. What advice can I give to her to help her deal with everyday life, and really importantly, her sex life? I need your help. I love the podcast and I recently started listening about three months ago. I’m all caught up, so please keep bringing them on. But back to my friend. I remembered that it sometimes helps if you have more details. She’s in her 20s, lesbian, and her ex-fiance cheated on her a few times while they were together. So now they’ve split, but her ex is testing positive. I guess while they were together, neither one of them got tested. The entire time they were together, my friend thought that her lady was being faithful. There’s no telling when her partner caught hepatitis C or herpes but now my friend might be at risk.”
That is such a stressful place to be. So first of all, Katie, thank you for writing in with this question. You’re a very good friend for wanting to find a way to help support her. Please tell your friend that I’m sorry that she’s having to deal with a fiance that’s now an ex, and wondering what the status of her health is. That sounds like a lot of change all at once. Also finding out that there was betrayal during the relationship that, especially, can be really heartbreaking and shatter your foundation of trust.
Dawn Serra: So hopefully you listened to the episode when I talked to Sarah Miller, all about herpes and bacterial vaginosis. Because Sarah had some amazing things to say about living with herpes and being diagnosed with herpes, and it is definitely not the end of a healthy sex life. Your friend is not going to end up alone and never find someone who wants to be with her. No matter what her status is, there are lots and lots of people out there who know how to have good conversations and navigate all kinds of STIs. I also have a blog post on Sex Gets Real in the weekly advice column all about herpes and how to live with it. So I will link to that for this episode on dawnserra.com/ep129. There are links to Ella Dawson’s TED talk and to a whole bunch of her articles all about what it’s like to, not only find out that you have herpes, but then to go back out into the world and have sex with people when you know your herpes status.
As shocking as it might feel for your friend right now and definitely holding space for those big feelings is important. It sounds like there’s a chance that she won’t come up positive for hepatitis C and herpes. While herpes is something that’s a lot easier to transmit through sexual contact, hepatitis C is a little bit more challenging to actually transmit sexually. There has to be blood contact. And not everybody when they engage in their sexual activity has blood contact, so it’s much less likely for hepatitis C to be spread through saliva or semen. Of course, you still want to know your status. Of course, you need to make choices about what types of risk you want to take. But hepatitis C is really all about blood.
Dawn Serra: So if you are someone who has hepatitis C or you’re partnered with or playing with somebody who has hepatitis C – the things you want to avoid are things like sharing a toothbrush since often our gums bleed when we brush our teeth, or sharing razors since we can nick skin and get a little bit of blood on a razor. Anything where blood might be shared is really what you want to be aware of when you’re dealing with hepatitis C diagnosis. There’s a really great page on the mayoclinic.org website all about hepatitis and sexual transmission. So they talk about how it’s primarily through exposure to blood that this gets transmitted. It’s rarely other body fluids and then their recommendations around risk. So definitely educating yourself is really important both about hepatitis C, herpes, HPV, because then you can make better choices.
The thing is, if your friend comes up positive for either or both hepatitis C and herpes, now she has information that she can share with partners so that the same thing doesn’t happen to them that happened to her, and it’s going to mean having conversations that might feel uncomfortable at first. But if you if you read along with Ella Dawson’s advice and talk at her whole blogs amazing, and a couple of other sex educators that are out there that talk about herpes, like Sarah Miller and Ashley Manta. They will all attest to the fact that once you get good at the conversation, it becomes a lot easier to have. When you’re armed with information, not only about your status, but how these things can be transmitted, it gives so much more confidence to potential partners – that you know what you’re talking about, and that they can really make an informed decision about their body and the types of activities that you’re going to engage in.
Dawn Serra: I encourage you to listen to Episode 115 with Sarah Miller where we talk all about STIs. Also to make sure that your friend has lots of support because medical professionals are often really really shame-y when it comes to STIs. They often don’t have a lot of information about them. They often are super uninformed about how they’re transmitted. It can be a really isolating experience. So having your friend get involved with sex positive clinics, and support groups, it’s really important. But more importantly, finding ways to help your friend process and heal from the infidelity and losing her fiance, and that relationship ending, and all of the change that that means for her.
So I want to thank you, Katie, for writing in and for being such a great friend. Definitely check out the resources that I’m going to have on Sex Gets Real for this episode. You’re going to have access to all kinds of links that you can share with your friend. Hopefully that’ll get her started on a journey of feeling a little more empowered and informed if her status does come back positive.
Dawn Serra: The other thing I want to say to everybody is, there was an article maybe about six months ago that came out in the Atlantic saying that monogamy doesn’t really protect you from STIs, because so many people don’t know their status. So many people don’t get regularly tested, and so many people engage in behaviors that are outside the contract of what you think monogamy means; which is to say that there are lots of people who are in monogamous relationships and are either intentionally being unethical and cheating or who may think that their definition of monogamy is the one that everybody’s going off of. And it may be totally different from the other person in the relationship if you haven’t really had those explicit conversations. People in monogamous relationships frequently find out that they have STIs. That’s just a matter of people don’t know that they have HPV or that they even have herpes because they’ve never gotten the test, or they haven’t gotten tested recently. And they end up in a relationship.
Also, because there’s lots of people who are engaging in unethical affairs or are doing something that’s in that gray area, but then puts them at risk. I’ll try and find that article. I linked to it before on the show, but it’s a reminder to everyone that even if you’re in a monogamous relationship, it’s important to still know your status, get tested, have conversations about what types of risks you’re willing to engage in. Make sure that you circle back and check in regularly. Don’t have the conversation once and then never have it again. Don’t go 10 years without having it, have it at least once a year. Check in with each other and see if there’s anything that you need to disclose or get retested for. So that everyone has an opportunity to make the right choices for themselves.
Dawn Serra: This next email is from someone named Lucy. It broke my heart to read. It’s about being a sex educator more than about sex itself. But I know there’s a lot of people out there in the world who experience what Lucy’s talking about in her email, including myself. So I’ll read the email and then we’ll roll around in it a little bit. It says, “Drowning, Desperate, Depressed.”
“Dear Dawn, I’m writing to you now because I am so unhappy with the direction my life is going and I have to change it. I have never had a passion and never really been excited about much. I’m 37 and a single parent. I make six figures a year doing IT work and I don’t have a degree, but I’ve been trying for 20 years to get my BA. Do I love it? Not even close. But I do it because that’s what I figure I’m supposed to do to pay for my house and provide my child with everything I never had. Over the past six months, I found your podcast and listened to the topics and all your guests. I would even go do research on my own. It ignited a spark in me I never had before. I thought how much I would love to be a sex educator, and even go as far as a dominatrix, a fetish model, or some type of erotic humiliation.”
Dawn Serra: “My mind has so many ideas, but I keep shutting them down because I am already in school pursuing an IT degree and I would have to start over. The negative talk gets me. Then a few months ago, I went home to New York for my 20-year high school reunion and reconnected with an old friend. To make a long story short, we are in love. The long distance from Texas to New York is tough. I know you’re familiar with the long distance relationship. I know now more than ever, I have to get out of here. I am so depressed every day working at a job that I don’t enjoy, and taking classes for a degree in a career that I don’t want, and I resent living in a city so far from the man I love.”
“I feel that a career in the sex industry would allow me the freedom to go where I want to go while pursuing my education. I’m just not sure where to start. My main concern is protecting my child. I know I cannot go on much longer living a life that is not meaningful and I don’t want to be on my deathbed and look back and say I didn’t live the life I wanted. It makes me so sad. I know I have to be responsible and I can’t just walk into my job and quit tomorrow. But I’m trying to figure out at least if there is some hope for me to get a life that is not this. My daughter deserves a mom that is full of joy. Not a mom that is so sad and wished she were somewhere else doing something else.”
Dawn Serra: Oh, Lucy. I’m so sorry that you’re feeling so trapped. It’s something that… Your story actually mirrors mine a lot more than you probably realize. I was in IT for, I don’t know, 17-years at a fortune 100, making six figures. And feeling like my life was being wasted in a way. I was really grateful for the people that I worked with. I was grateful for the stability and the money and the benefits. It afforded me an opportunity to travel around the world and to buy a home when I was really young. But I also felt like I really wanted my life to be dedicated to helping others and being one person in management in IT in a huge company just didn’t feel like it was fulfilling my soul or my heart. So I really understand that.
A couple of things that I want to offer, and this might be a peek inside of the sex industry that a lot of people don’t get, and that is 1.) if you have a kid, unfortunately, because we live in a very sex negative society, doing any kind of sex work really puts you at risk as a parent and also your child. It’s an unfortunate truth. But you can, as a sex worker, run into all kinds of issues around social workers feeling like you’re not fit as a parent and potentially losing custody. So those are very real things you need to weigh very carefully. If I were you, I would recommend talking to other sex workers who are parents, if you can find any who would be willing to talk to you just to talk about how they try to mitigate risk and how they keep a low profile. Those are things that you might want to hold off on until your child is old enough to take care of themselves or is off at college, so it’s less of a concern.
Dawn Serra: There’s, of course, ways to do various types of sex work where you’re not actually putting your face out there – doing phone sex operation. I know, Ashley Manta, who I’ve interviewed did phone sex stuff for a while and got a lot of really interesting skills as a result. So that’s something to consider. But I want to talk about being a sex educator for a minute. Going into school for sex education is a really wonderful thing to do. There are so many different paths that you can take as a sex educator. You can go into sex research in academia, you can go into education and actually teaching people classes or creating videos. But because we live in a sex negative society, it can be very, very difficult to make a living as a sex educator.
A lot of the sex educators that I know actually have full time jobs at corporations and businesses, and do their sex education on the side. Some of these people are actually really, really prominent people with long standing careers in the industry. And because having a steady income was really important to them or because they branched out on their own for a while and then decided that the hustle was taking up so much time and energy; that they wanted to have that comfort and that steady income coming in, they went back into corporate to get a full time job and do it on the side. It’s not easy. Sex educators can’t run Facebook ads or Twitter ads. We can’t do Google Ad Words. If you do anything related to sex at all, they group you in with pornography. So you have to do a lot of promotion and a lot of hustling. Of course, there are people who absolutely do make it work. But I think that what we don’t see is how many years and how much time it takes to really be that kind of an entrepreneur, hustler. It’s certainly possible. But it does help to have other options that can keep you going while you’re building your business and building your career.
Dawn Serra: There’s a lot of sex bloggers out there who get paid advertisers on their blog to help bring some money in. So that’s definitely a place where you can start. If you’re really good at making videos, then having a really thriving YouTube channel and getting sponsors that way is another way, doing classes, and in person. But I would recommend anybody who’s considering going into sex education, talking to a lot of sex education who do a lot of different work and ask them specifically how they make their money.
A lot of sex educators are licensed therapists. So they have therapy practices on the side, or they do porn so that they can make money via sex work, or webcaming. They have full time or part time jobs. I occasionally take work on the side to help other people with their websites or with editing their podcast, just to get some additional income coming in. So I totally understand feeling trapped by the job. But I can tell you that having taken the leap of quitting my full time job to pursue my dream full time, I really underestimated how long it would take to build my business and how difficult it would be to do it. While I don’t really have any regrets because the most amazing things have happened since I did that, I absolutely would do it a little bit differently if I had a chance to do it again. I would have stayed with my job longer and hustled on the side longer, and/or tried to find a way to go part time with my job.
Dawn Serra: The one thing I want to offer you, Lucy is, knowing what your dream is and having a vision for it is really powerful. Because there are so many ways to work on that within the current context of where you are that gives relief, because you know you’re moving in that direction. It might not have been now, it might not happen in six months, or a year. But to know that you’re chipping away at it – that actually has a big payoff in the end – having that long, slow tail of building up and learning and getting the experience.
As for getting your IT degree, if you really don’t want to be in IT and you’re just doing it to pay the bills, then don’t finish the degree. I mean, having a degree is important, especially when you’re doing mainstream work because everybody at this point is looking for,not only bachelor’s but master’s. If you want to get a degree in something else, then pivot and start working on the degree in something else, or don’t finish the degree, and use the time that you normally spend in classes actually working on building your business as either a sex blogger or a sex educator. The good news is you have lots of options. We all have lots of options. But I also want to make it really clear that so many sex educators out there in the world who are doing really amazing work, also have jobs that retail shops. Which as fun as those jobs can be and as much as you learn, don’t pay a lot. You’re making an hourly wage that can be $15 an hour or $20 an hour, that’s usually part time.
Dawn Serra: So I want everyone, when they’re pursuing their dreams, to decide what’s the level of risk that you can take on. I was in a position where I could take a really big risk, and even if at some point I fail miserably and crash and burn, I don’t have kids and I can move in with my family, and I have Alex; and I have so many friends who have offered me places to live for as long as I need to that I feel like I have this really wonderful support network at my disposal if I crash and burn and have to start all over again. If I had kids, my level of risk I’d be willing to take around that would probably be pretty different. But we all have to take a look at what are all the resources we have available to us, what do our dreams look like? Can we wait and work on them slowly or do we need to work on them right now? What does best case look like? What does worst case look like? Then get really real about what it’s like to be a sex educator in a super sex negative world. What are all the ways that you can leverage the existing system to get you exposure and help you make money
Definitely check out Tristan Taormino’s Sex Educator Boot Camp, check out Reid Mihalko’s Sex Geek Summer Camp, The Center for Sexual Pleasure and Health, which is up in Providence, Rhode Island. It just started offering a course on becoming a sex educator. There’s lots of other programs. I actually have in my 5-year plan to create a certification program for sex educators too. So there’s definitely options where you can start learning about all the different ways to connect with people and make money – jump on those and then really sit with it. It’s like NRE – when we feel that rush of like, “Oh my god, I really want this thing or I really want to be with this person, we can tend to leap blindly, because we’re chasing that feeling and to not chase the feeling can feel really uncomfortable and terrible – almost like we’re torturing ourselves if we don’t fulfill this need or chase after that feeling. But all feelings pass, no feeling stays the same. All emotions are literally waves that just move through us if we allow them to. So that suffering of not being able to live this dream that you have is going to pass and you will experience other emotions, if you allow yourself to; and the excitement about being a sex educator will shift and the reality will come in, and then concerns will come in and then questions, and then the elation. You’ll move through lots of different emotions. So just don’t feel like you’re stuck in this place because you have lots of options and you have this person that you love, who now is supporting you and can hopefully help you live towards your dream. Hopefully, that will create space for something new.
Dawn Serra: So I hope that was helpful Lucy and anyone else who’s interested in sex education. I hope that gave you some food for thought. It’s my perspective. There’s lots of perspectives out there. So don’t just take my word for it. Make sure you go and ask some of the other people who have forged their paths and their ways, because there’s so many of them. We all are pioneers in our own way. Because sex work and sex education are not appreciated in this world yet, but they will be. Just not not right now. Thanks so much, Lucy.
I want to encourage everyone to make sure you go to dawnserra.com and sign up for the newsletter as some of my workshops I’ve been doing in person get translated into online workshops, which means you can attend them from anywhere in the world. No pants required. I’ll be sending out notifications about that. I think it’s time now to transition into this really fun conversation that I had with Parijat about how to maintain intimacy and sexual connection when your body is in a place where you can’t actually engage in any kind of intercourse. It’s something that Parijat specializes in, specifically with high risk pregnancy, but applies to so many people with different types of bodies and conditions and illnesses. So I hope you’ll stay tuned because this next 30 minutes is a really fun chat that I can’t wait for you to finally hear.
Dawn Serra: Hey everybody, Dawn Serra here, getting ready for a really exciting discussion. For those of you that don’t know me, I am the creator of the Sex Gets Real podcast. I’m also a sex coach and sex educator, working with clients all around desire, sexuality, relationships, communication. I am really excited for what we’re about to dive into and with me is…
Parijat Deshpande: Hi everyone. I’m Parijat Deshpande. I’m so excited to be here, too, Dawn. I’m really excited to chat with you. I am a perinatal wellness counselor and I work with women to help them lower their stress and anxiety during a high risk pregnancy. So they feel calmer and more confident, and can have a healthier pregnancy. So we have some really great conversation topics for today. I’m really excited to dive in and learn more, bringing your expertise into this conversation, Dawn.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I know. We’ve been trying to plan this for several months. So I’m excited that we’re actually getting a chance to co-create something together and hopefully bring some new ideas and tools, and skills and conversation into people’s lives.
Parijat Deshpande: Yeah, absolutely. I think, just to kick this off, the reason that I think we’d originally wanted to do this is because this whole part of the relationship that I feel like we don’t talk a lot about. It’s there and people are struggling with the intimacy, the closeness, and the sexuality – all of that is there. Yet, there’s some kind of taboo about, “Oh no, we can’t talk about this.” So I love that you’re doing this work, because we need to talk about this.
Dawn Serra: I totally agree. I mean, the thing that comes up for me over and over and over again, in the work that I do, is people feel like they don’t know how to talk about sex and talk about intimacy, and talk about their experiences. Then they reach a point where they’re in crisis, or they’ve experienced some type of change, or things are becoming a lot more challenging than they used to be. And they have no tools in their toolbox for knowing how to navigate it or deal with it and they feel scared or ashamed or like there’s something wrong with them. So much of what I’m trying to do is to let everybody know, no matter what your experience is, you’re normal and there’s ways to work through it.
Everybody has some level of shame and everybody feels like they don’t know what they’re doing, especially when it comes to things not working right or the way you expect them to. Any opportunity to talk about this stuff and show people that it’s okay to feel unsure and it’s okay to make mistakes, and it’s okay to feel like you don’t know what the heck you’re doing or how to say it. Because, none of us are raised in a – very few of us are raised in households where open communication about bodies and sexuality and desire are modeled for us. So we’re all shooting in the dark.
Parijat Deshpande: So I know in my community with the moms that I work with, this is extra confusing because now that they have a high risk pregnancy, there’s all this fear about what’s going to happen in the baby. So there’s generally that question of, “Well, is it okay to have sex?” “Is it okay to be physically intimate when you’re pregnant?” But then when you have a high risk pregnancy, many of these moms are being told, “You can’t do it at all. There’s no physical intimacy allowed.” Then what does that do to your relationship? Because now you’re both already scared about the baby, and what’s going to happen, and you’re not allowed to have that huge major part of your relationship as something to rely on, something to count on, as you’re getting through this really scary time.
So one of the questions that I was thinking abou, Dawn, that I’d love your thoughts on is how can a couple that isn’t able to be physically intimate for whatever reason – how can they still stay connected?
Dawn Serra: That’s a wonderful question. I think that there’s so many phases in our life where physical intimacy might not be possible – from a high risk pregnancy to some type of chronic illness, diagnosis or a physical injury, or an accident or we’re physically apart because we’re travelling or something. So, I love this question. There’s a couple of different approaches for this.
One of the things that I’m really big on is most of us have too narrow of a definition of sexual intimacy. In that when we hear, “Oh, we had sex.” Almost all of us immediately jumped to intercourse. Yet, there are so many other ways that we can have sexual desire and sexual connection, and feel that arousal and feel that heat with somebody that doesn’t have to include intercourse. When we think about queer communities, and gay and lesbian communities, and trans communities – they’re having all kinds of super amazing sex that probably doesn’t include intercourse depending on their body parts and what they feel comfortable with. So one of the things I like to do is I like to invite people to expand the way that they define sex. How can we still feel physically connected without having to have only intercourse going on? It might be a naked massage, it might be showering together and being able to touch each other’s bodies, it might be sending really super flirty texts, or writing each other erotic stories that you’re sharing back and forth; so that you’re engaging your imagination, which is such a huge part of our sexual experience. But maybe you’re not actually then following through on the physical act of intercourse until it’s safe for you.
Parijat Deshpande: I love that, I love that. Those are really great ideas because they sound really safe to do. But still really important and can really close that gap that you might be feeling because of whatever it is that is keeping you apart.
Dawn Serra: Right, exactly. One of the things that I think is so delicious about sexual connection is anticipation. So I think what could be really beautiful is finding a way. And it can be hard when you’re really stressed and you’re exhausted and you’re worried. It can be hard to kind of find a way to tap into your creative energy and your imagination. But if you can find a way to reframe the situation as, “Here’s all the things that we can’t do,” and instead, “Here’s all the things that we can,” and for the things that we’d like to do, but they’re not available to us right now. We’re just going to make this the most epic build up of anticipation ever.
So how much can we tease each other or how many sexy links can I send to him before he just can’t take anymore? Make it like a game where the two of you get to build a connection around the creativity and the imagination, and the anticipation so that you’re not only moving through this time by turning towards each other, but so that when you do reach a point where you’re ready for that physical intimacy – now you have this incredibly rich bucket of ideas that you nurtured for all of that time.
Parijat Deshpande: Yeah, absolutely. For my mom, sometimes that’s several months down the road. I’m sure for some people, depending on the nature of your injury or illness or something, that could be the case too. Maybe even writing it down someplace you have access to that file or that document whenever you are ready. So you have all these ideas. You don’t even have to start from scratch.
Dawn Serra: Exactly. There’s so many things you can do. You can get a spiral notebook and you can start an erotic story to your partner and then they can add a few more lines, and you add a few more lines – it can be like this ongoing story you build together over the course of your pregnancy. Or you can make like a little photo album of really erotic images that have inspired fantasies – whatever it is. I mean, the sky’s the limit. The only thing that you’re limited by is really your imagination and how much energy you want to put into it. Having this playfulness to come back to, during a time when there’s a lot of other things going on, a lot of stress, I think can actually be a nice way to feel like, “Not every single moment of my life is consumed with this singular thing. I actually still have a little bit of me left and I have this space where I can go play.”
Parijat Deshpande: I love that. Yes, exactly. Because when you have something going on that’s so big in your life, especially – I’m seeing with the moms that I work with, it just becomes everything and you can’t think of anything. It’s almost tunnel vision because you’re so scared for your baby. Even though there may not be anything happening emergently now, there’s this feeling that, “That’s all I can think about, that’s all I can do, that’s all I can really plan for.”
I love that you’re bringing up this topic that’s so important that actually, it’s okay to be happy. It’s okay to feel connected, and actually, it’s a really good thing because it’s going to help you get through whatever it is that you’re going through. And make you feel closer on the other side of it whenever it’s over.
Dawn Serra: Exactly. I think it can actually be a really great– I struggle with anxiety. So I have lots of different ways that I cope with anxiety. So I understand how when you’re in the middle of an event that is very stressful or anxiety inducing, that it can sound – I don’t know, flipped, to say, “Just don’t think about it and go do this other thing.” But there can be this really beautiful way of actually using it as a soothing tool of, “I’m feeling really stressed out right now and I’m really worried about what’s coming next. So I’m going to give myself 15 minutes to get an escape from this place and I’m going to go look for some super sexy lingerie that I’ll treat myself to when we get to the other side.” And I’ll send some teasing pictures to my partner of, “Hey, look what I’m looking at.” Or looking at ladycheeky.com is this beautiful Tumblr, full of explicit, but erotic images that are very sensual and connected. I send tons of my clients there for material to inspire and get creative or to share sexy links with each other.
Give yourself the opportunity of, “I feel like all I’ve thought about for the past 48-hours is this thing that I’m so scared of, so I’m going to give myself permission to not think about it for just a little while and I’m going to go do this other thing that’s going to offer some relief.” You’re so right that doing this thing for yourself, and giving yourself an opportunity to feel really present and to focus on something that feels exciting or new is such a wonderful, wonderful act of self care.
Parijat Deshpande: Yeah. It really does positively impact how you’re feeling your mood, and it impacts your body. Everything from your head to your toes is going to be responding to the fact that you’re taking a break from this really stressful time. You’re just giving yourself a mental break. Physically, emotionally, mentally, you’re going to feel that difference because you really need that break. We can’t sustain that level of stress for that long. Something even as simple as holding hands and watching a movie together, would you say?
Dawn Serra: Yes. Actually something else that I wanted to mention is, in our culture, we have a lot of very unrealistic and damaging myths around sex and desire. As a result, we’ve fabricated this crisis of desire. We see pharmaceutical companies trying to create drugs and articles, and magazines, “Bring back desire, have more sex.” All this kind of stuff. The truth is that desire is going to constantly ebb and flow through our entire lives. For many of us, desire can’t really blossom and be that burning fire when we’re under a great deal of stress. So it’s really natural and it’s normal if you’re in a place where you feel really stressed to not have any kind of sexual desire. You can still be turning towards a partner or a loved one if sexual desire is just not something you’re feeling right now. That’s normal. You’re okay, you’re not broken, it will come back down the road if you want it to.
Having those simple rituals of still finding ways to create shared moments and shared spaces, like holding hands and watching a movie, or… I’m a really, really huge fan of intimacy building questions. So asking each other questions about hopes, dreams, memories, things that are really important to you. It doesn’t have to be like an interrogation that goes on for hours. But it can be really fun to sit down for 20-minutes and just say, “Okay, I want to ask you five questions about your favorite childhood memories and where you want to be in five years.” Research has actually shown that when you engage with your partner and allow them to share themselves with you in that way, and you create that space, you’re building a lot of resilience and friendship, and strength into your relationship. So even if you’re not thinking, “Oh my gosh, I can’t wait till we’re naked again.” If you can still find ways to be turning towards each other, and talking about what you want for the future, what you’re hoping for for each other, how you can support each other – those are still really beautiful acts of intimacy that are going to help you move through this high risk pregnancy or through this stressful time; so that you have something to really hold you through until you’re at a place where you have a little bit more energy and a little bit more interest in engaging in sex, or having some type of sexual connection with yourself again.
Parijat Deshpande: I love that. One of the things that I hear a lot is, “ I feel broken and I’m this big beached whale. I don’t feel good.” So even for the moms who are allowed to have intercourse or even have any kind of physical intimacy, they feel that way or afterwards, I hear a lot of, “My body’s different, it looks different, it feels different, and I don’t feel attractive anymore.” Maybe even physical intimacy aside, what are your thoughts about how to help get back to that place of you feeling attractive so you can even think about this again?
Dawn Serra: Yeah, that’s a powerful question that so many of us struggle with for so many different reasons.
Parijat Deshpande: Right.
Dawn Serra: The thing that I think is so important for all of us to remember is, youth affords us, especially youth, youth affords us a certain level of luxury in assuming that the body that we’re in is going to stay the body that we’re in until some type of big event happens. But the truth is, whether you get pregnant and have children, or you don’t, as time passes, your body’s constantly evolving. The amount of arousal that you experience, the way that your tissues engorge, the way that your breasts lie. All of this isn’t a constant state of change. So all of us are having to stay in touch with our bodies and get to know ourselves as we change. I think the difference is, normally the changes in our body happen fairly slowly. And when we have some type of event, like a pregnancy, the changes in our body can seem like they happen overnight. Suddenly we’re in a body that feels really foreign.
The most important thing is 1.) to give yourself permission to feel confused or to feel like you don’t know how you feel about this new body, and to invite yourself to start exploring what this new body means for you. Because things are probably going to feel different. I mean, I’ve had so many clients who are breastfeeding mothers, and they’re so oversaturated with touch from their toddlers, they don’t want their husbands to touch them at all. It’s like, “All I do is get grabbed, and pulled, and tugged on. The last thing I want is for you to be doing that to me too.”
Parijat Deshpande: Right?
Dawn Serra: Yes. So that is very real. There’s a couple of different approaches to this, but I think the most important ones to remember is your body is capable of pleasure, no matter what it looks like. If you invite that in instead of being worried about perfection, and instead of being worried on how to go back to the way things were, which takes up so much mental space and so much energy and makes us feel so bad. Taking a very mindful, present-based approach of, ‘This is the body I’m in right now and I can’t do anything to change this moment. But I can certainly feel incredible things right now.”
You don’t have to be in love with your body. You don’t have to love every part of you. In fact, you can actively really not like certain parts of your body, and still have really incredible pleasure and touch, and orgasms and connection with another person. So giving yourself permission to say, “Okay, I may not love what’s going on with my boobs right now or I may not have any idea how I feel about these stretch marks. But these touches feel really good and I’m allowed to feel good about that. I’m allowed to enjoy my body.”
Parijat Deshpande: I think that’s so powerful to give yourself that permission to say, “I don’t like this” or “I’m not happy with this” or “I don’t know how I feel about this, but I like how this feels.” And to give yourself permission that it’s okay to feel that way. Because I know a lot of moms who go through a traumatic pregnancy or traumatic birth experience, there’s a lot of that trauma that’s held inside your body. Sometimes when you get into a vulnerable situation or an intimate situation, like being with your partner, some of that can come out. Especially the first few times, even if you think you may be ready, and then you realize all these floods of emotion are coming up for you. That’s okay and that’s part of the healing process. That’s part of the journey that your body and you have to go through to get to this new place of healing that you will get to. It just takes some time and a little bit of work.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I think the beautiful thing is when we’re in a place where we’re unsure, we often want to 1.) control it and 2.) go back to the way things work, because we understand that world and we understand that body. But if we approach it from a place of curiosity, which does take practice, it takes practice to be unsure and to be a little awkward, and to not really know how you feel about things, and to just sit in that instead of trying to rush through. But when you start to cultivate this, “I’m not really sure how I feel about my body, but this feels new,” or “This sensation didn’t used to be so sensitive,” or “My nipples didn’t used to feel this way.” And being open to this change you’re going to find such a rich, exciting experience with yourself and maybe even surprise yourself.
I mean, things that maybe didn’t used to feel good pre-baby may feel amazing post-baby and vice versa. Allowing yourself to change and also to say, “I don’t know, I don’t know how this new body works and I don’t know how I feel about this new body or being touched.” Maybe if you’re nursing, the last thing you want is for your partner to touch your breasts. It’s really okay to say, “My breasts are feeling really sensitive. So I’d love to take those off the table for now. Then we can circle back to this some other time. But there’s lots of other places that I would love for you to touch.”
Parijat Deshpande: That’s such an important point that it’s okay to say that. Let’s have this conversation, whether it’s during pregnancy when intimacy is off the table completely. Maybe the closest thing you can do is hold your hand – hold hands with each other, or this is after pregnancy or whatever is happening; to really be sure that you’re communicating about what you need, what you don’t want, and really have that open conversation with each other to help with the awkwardness and the nervousness and what’s he thinking – what’s she thinking, what do we do now? I think a lot of that stress can be alleviated by being able to talk to each other.
Dawn Serra: Absolutely. I think that’s where so many of us get hung up is, we want our partners to read our minds and we want our partners to pick up on our cues and our hints. But we really need to be able to advocate for ourselves and to ask for what we want or what we don’t want. And to be able to do it in a way that’s not a reaction. So instead of a partner reaching for us, and us yelling at them for touching us that way, to instead engage in the conversation ahead of time and say, “Here’s how I’m feeling about my body today and here’s what I’d really love to do with you.”
The truth is how you feel tomorrow about your body is probably going to be a little bit different. So being able to actually have those conversations with each other sets you up and sets your partner up for so much more success, because now you don’t have those little moments of resentment building. You don’t have those little micro-aggressions of like, “Why’d you touch me there? I gave you the look that says don’t touch me there.”
Parijat Deshpande: Let’s expand that for a second and let’s go into that space where, let’s say one partner is really craving intimacy of some kind and the other partner is just going no, either because, “I’m on pelvic rest, I can’t.” or “I’m so not in that space right now. I don’t want to.” How can you have that conversation that’s mutually respectful, and that still builds on intimacy instead of making both people feel even more alienated?
Dawn Serra: It’s so important for the person who wants to have some type of sexual encounter or some type of intimate exchange. It’s so important for the other partner to not shame them for wanting sex or for wanting that type of connection. Because sexual shame can do really deep, deep psychological damage. Shaming a partner once or twice can actually be something they carry with them for years. So we don’t want that to happen. If a partner approaches us and either flat out says, “I would really love to have sex tonight,” or does a little dance – that’s more like what we do, which is the backrub, and then like, “Hi, honey.” There’s an expectation behind it.
Being able to acknowledge or ask, “Hey, what are you feeling like tonight? What would you like to have happen?” Give them an opportunity to actually articulate it, because you might assume that that lower backrub and that wink means they want sex. But they might actually just want to cuddle with you and feel your hands on their body. What you’re doing is you’re telling a story instead of letting them give you the information. So a great start is just, ‘Wow, that touch felt really good. What are you interested in tonight?” or “I feel like there’s something you’re interested in. I feel like you’re hinting at something, so tell me what it is.” Then if they share and it’s something that you’re not capable or willing to do, I think the next step is to be really clear, “I would love to connect with you and I’m so thankful you share that with me. I’m not in a place where that would feel good for me right now,” or “I just can’t because of what the doctor said. I would love to support you feeling really good. So if there’s something else that we can do, or some other way I can support you, so that I can rest and take care of me but you still feel like you have an opportunity to do something that feels fun and good for you.”
Dawn Serra: I think one of the things that’s so important is most of us feel really uncomfortable talking about masturbation, and having that as a viable option. I love using solo sex, because I think solo sex comes with much less charge. But if we’re in a situation where because of some time of medical condition or pregnancy, we can’t engage in certain types of sex and our partner really wants to still have some type of sexual outlet, being able to encourage them to enjoy their bodies and still take care of themselves, and to even be able to support them through that of, “If you want to go take care of yourself tonight, I would love to help you find a couple of sexy links,” or whatever it is and to make that something you connect over that is really powerful. But that also takes a lot of courage and a lot of people aren’t quite ready to step into that zone. So I just want to offer that as something that you are allowed to do and you do have permission to offer even if that feels a little awkward.
Parijat Deshpande: But I can see how powerful that is. Again, it’s another way to be connected even when you can’t be physically connected. I love that.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, exactly. Just being really clear of “This is what I want, this is what I need, or this is what I can’t do,” but still offering that, “How can I support you?” Or “Is there something else you’d like to do?” By ending it with the question, your partner doesn’t feel like you’re rejecting them or shutting them down. They feel like you’re engaging in a conversation and a dialogue. And that’s where most of us get stuck of like “No, I can’t tonight.”
Parijat Deshpande: Yeah, right.
Dawn Serra: It’s like this guillotine.
Parijat Deshpande: Right, exactly. It just shuts it down. No more.
Dawn Serra: Right, right. It’s okay for us to have bad days. I mean, if your body hurts and everything is sore, and you’re grumpy because you’ve been on bedrest, and you don’t have the energy to be that compassionate – it’s okay to say that, too, like, “I really want to support you and I know that you’re doing this because you love me, and you are feeling horny or whatever it is. But I’m just feeling exhausted and I’m in a lot of pain, and I’m feeling really grumpy and I want to be able to offer you more, but I can’t.”
Parijat Deshpande: Yeah, the big takeaway I’m getting from this is, it’s okay to talk about whatever it is that’s going on for both of you, whether that’s you or your partner wanting that intimacy, you or your partner not wanting intimacy, whatever that is, it’s okay to talk about. It should be talked about, and that it’s okay that you both feel the way that you feel, even if it’s different.
Dawn Serra: Exactly. Differences aren’t the enemy, assumptions and expectations are. Oftentimes we think we know what our partners’ motivations or wants are, if they’ve come to us with something similar in the past. But we need to give them an opportunity to share that with us, so that we’re not making that assumption and trying to tell their story for them. Then when they actually answer if it is exactly what you thought it was going to be, then you can still have a dialogue that connects you around that. You’re so right. Just being really clear about where you are – it’s okay for your partner to come to you and say, “I’m just feeling so frustrated and lonely, and I miss being touched. I just wish there was a way that we could make this work.”
It’s okay for them to be frustrated and to share that with you. It’s not that they’re making a demand, it’s that they’re sharing these things that they want, and they just know aren’t possible right now. I think it’s really tempting when we, perhaps, are carrying some guilt around not being able to do something with our partner to take that really personally. To take that as an accusation. So instead to take a moment to breathe and then ask the question of, “Is there something else that we can do or is there a way that I can support you, where I don’t have to compromise my health or stop doing bed rest or whatever it is?” But to allow their feelings to be true, and allow your feelings to be true. Because you can have all of these feelings exist in the same space and it doesn’t have to be a competition. No one is right or wrong,
Parijat Deshpande: Right? I hear also from my moms frequently that both partners are completely on the same page – that physical intimacy is off the table when she’s on pelvic rest, they’re not going to push it, they’re not going to even risk anything. Then what happens is, then it goes the complete opposite direction, that they’re sitting on two opposite ends of the sofa or they’re not even kissing each other good night, because it’s so ingrained that we must protect the baby. So everything’s off the table. Some of my clients come and tell me as part of their stress that their feeling is they’re worried that this high risk pregnancy is getting in between their relationship. So what’s a good one way for the partner to share their love and affection safely and how can the moms then be open to hearing that?
Dawn Serra: It can be really hard sometimes to receive love and admiration, and desire from a partner, especially when we’re not feeling really good about ourselves or we’re feeling really disconnected from our bodies. So I think that’s a really powerful question. One of the most important things for all of us to remember is that our partners are choosing to be on this journey with us. It’s okay to ask for support if you need reassurance. It’s okay to let them know that it’s hard for you to receive that compliment or to ask for a different compliment. That’s another thing that you can do. I think too many times we don’t ask for the kind of support that we really need. So if a partner offers us some type of support as an act of goodwill, and you’re feeling like, “I don’t want to hear how beautiful I am tonight, I just want to know that you still want to be with me and it’s okay that I’m sitting here in my pajamas, and I might not be out of them for a few months.” So it’s okay to say that to a partner, and to specifically ask for that kind of reassurance and that kind of support.
The important part is when they then offer that to you to allow yourself to receive, and it can be really vulnerable to receive from people that we love. The only thing that I can offer when it comes to that is 1.) it takes practice, 2.) it’s okay if you have big feelings come up, and tears come on, or you feel frustrated because it didn’t feel the way that you thought it would, or you feel like you’re a disappointment, or you’re feeling really disconnected. And to allow those things to be your truth. I think where we get into trouble is if a partner offers support, and we don’t know how to receive it, and big feelings start coming up to then try and rush through them or to pretend like it’s not happening.
Parijat Deshpande: Yes, right.
Dawn Serra: That’s where we start building resentment, and that’s actually a moment when we’re turning away from not only our partners, but we’re turning away from ourselves. So how can we allow ourselves to be uncomfortable and to feel awkward, and to be tired of crying, but that’s just what’s coming up right now? And to allow that to be the truth. I think one of the most important things is when your relationship is going through any kind of big transition, whether it’s a move, a new job or a baby, there is going to be a period of time when things feel off. And your normal is no longer normal. It can feel really exhausting to feel like you’re constantly trying, and things just aren’t the way that they used to be. That’s when it’s so important to start creating really tiny rituals of connection.
I think where people get into really big trouble when their relationship is going through some kind of change is they try to do great big sweeping gestures – we’re going to do a date night and get a babysitter, or we’re going to cook ourselves a big meal like we did before baby was here. That can be such a source of disappointment when it’s hard to make that happen. So instead, what’s something that you can do every day that takes 30 seconds? Maybe it’s a kiss in the morning. My partner and I have a ritual that at the end of every day, the last thing that we do is we ask, “What was the best part of your day?”
Parijat Deshpande: Oh, I love that.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I got that from a friend of mine who’s a therapist, and she does that with her partner and has for decades. Sometimes the best part of your day is your partner and something sweet he did for you, and sometimes the best part of your day is totally not your partner. But having the ritual and being able to have that one moment of connection can be really powerful when everything feels out of whack and you don’t know what’s coming next, and you’re starting to worry, like, “Are we even going to make it through this?” or “When are things going to settle down?” So focusing on the little rituals, the little connections, the little kisses, maybe holding each other. There’s a whole bunch of scientific research about 35 second hugs. Maybe it’s a 30-second hug where you’re sharing breath together, and being present for those 30 seconds.
Parijat Deshpande: That’s a ritual that we started when I was on bedrest, is the 30-second hug. It was something that my husband shared with me. I was surprised that he had shared it so openly, he hadn’t really done that before. But he was missing our connection and I was on bedrest from the very beginning of my pregnancy. So he said, “How about when I come home from work every day, let’s just give each other a hug?” And it’s one that we’ve stuck with all these years now. My son is three, so the last three years. It’s just a really wonderful way to stay present and to have some kind of reliable, consistent, something like a rock when you’re floating in the middle of the ocean during a high risk pregnancy. You have no idea what’s happening next. You have no idea what to expect. But you do know that this one thing is going be there. It’s tremendously helpful.
Dawn Serra: Yes, exactly. Having those little moments of shared meaning and shared ritual, whether you’re going through a high risk pregnancy or you’re coasting along in a 20-year marriage. One of the things that is a cornerstone of resilient, happy relationships are people who create shared rituals and meanings. So that hug is such a perfect example. Another one that I do with my partner is if we’re in a place like a conference, or in a movie theater where we can’t speak, we do three hand squeezes and that means I love you.
Parijat Deshpande: Oh, I love that.
Dawn Serra: So even if you’re just sitting at home watching Netflix and your partner reaches over, and gives your hand those three squeezes, now you’ve got this little shared vocabulary and it makes you feel like, “My partner’s reached out and we have this moment.”
Parijat Deshpande: Absolutely.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. So I invite people to, don’t worry about the big sweeping gestures and getting back to really intense sex life and having all these dates. But instead, focusing on how can, every day, we just have one or two little moments of connection so that we’re still reaching towards each other, even on the worst days.
Parijat Deshpande: Absolutely. One of the things that I teach my clients when I work with her individually is, and I think this can apply in a couple situation too, is to find something that’s going to make you feel at least a 7 out of 10. It has to be at least a seven, because if it’s anything less than that, you’re not going to stick with it. It doesn’t feel good enough to stick with and keep trying. So find what that is between you and your partner. It could be a hug, it could be hand holding. It could be something – whatever that is. Like you’re saying, find that shared meaning and that it makes you both feel so good, that you’re going to stick with it no matter what’s going on.
Dawn Serra: Exactly, yeah. Those moments, to me, are the really beautiful moments that are all these little bricks that you’re laying in exactly solid foundation.
Parijat Deshpande: Yep. Foundation was the word that came to my mind. Exactly. I love that. You do such amazing work, Dawn. How can people find you?
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Thank you. So my coaching business is at dawnserra.com and Serra is SERRA. You can also find my podcast – my podcast is pretty no holds barred when it comes to sex. So we talk about sex toys, I interview porn stars. I mean all kinds of stuff, but you can find the podcast and I also take questions from listeners and bring experts on and that’s over at dawnserra.com/sexgetsrealpod. So yeah, I invite anybody I’m on social media everywhere is Dawn Serra. So feel free to follow me or to say hi or to ask questions, because I’m always interested in offering resources and help however I can.
Parijat Deshpande: Awesome. I love it.
Dawn Serra: Where can people find you?
Parijat Deshpande: I am at parijatdeshpande.com. I think my name will be spelled in the email but you guys got to get this audio here, but I’m online there if you have a high risk pregnancy, if you’re struggling with stress and anxiety – that is my specialty. There are very few resources out there for high risk moms, specifically, there’s a lot of generic pregnancy advice and my personal experience with a high risk pregnancy really drives me to do this work. So if you’re struggling, please know that I’m around and I am available. I’m also on social media as well – Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram, LinkedIn. You just search for me and I’ll pop up for you and I really look forward to connecting.
Dawn Serra: Yay, this was so much fun.
Parijat Deshpande: This was so great.
Dawn Serra: I know! I’m so glad we finally did this. I can’t wait for everybody to hear it because it’s wonderful.
Parijat Deshpande: I know. It was so smooth and easy and, Oh god, it was incredible. Yeah. Thank you, everybody.
Dawn Serra: Bye.