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Erotica has played a significant role in my own sexual exploration and development – from teaching me about my own desires and fantasies to understanding the depth of other people’s sexual landscapes. It’s a yummy and delicious space to play in.
That’s why I’m so excited to be joined by Rachel Kramer Bussel this week, who has edited over 60 erotica books and who currently has 2 open calls for submissions. So listeners – if you are at all interested in getting some erotica published, take a look at the links down below.
Rachel talks about what makes for good erotica, how we can use erotica to not only arouse but to heal, ways to make erotica political and transformative, and all the ways she wants to challenge the narrative around conventional beauty in the stories she writes. Where are the fat men and the bald men and the short men and the body diversity?
We even talk about necrophilia, which may be a first for the show.
Plus, Rachel teases us with a few minutes from an erotic story called “Starstruck” by Lazuli Jones, so settle in and get ready to get excited about all things erotica.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
In this episode, Rachel Kramer Bussel and Dawn talk about:
- How erotica keeps pulling Rachel back, even after editing 60 books and reading thousands of stories. Knowing there is no end to the art of the possible when it comes to sex is exciting.
- The power of writing sex as a way to get inside the head of a character. No other medium allows us to see into a person’s motivation and arousal in quite the same way. It has a beautiful voyeuristic invitation that expands our understanding of sex.
- Using erotica to explore the taboo and to explore our darker and scarier sides in a safe way.
- Erotica’s potential to also be a force for the political, specifically Chuck Tingle’s erotica eBooks that use current events and the news to inspire funny, sexy stories. Rachel mentions “Pounded by the Pound” which can be found on Amazon.
- What makes for a really great, solid piece of erotica.
- The many reasons people read and write erotica. Some people use it to get aroused and to masturbate or share with a partner. Others read it because some of the stories change you or move you in surprising or challenging ways. It’s a way to explore your edges and also other people’s experiences of sex.
- Rachel’s interest in writing about people of size, especially larger/fat men. While there is a big, handsome man trope, Rachel sees a big gap in our culture around who we find desirable. Erotica is a way to start changing that dialog that there is only one kind of body that’s sexy. Rachel wants to see stories eroticizing bodies who look like George Castanza or who are short or who are bald in the way that isn’t glamourized by Hollywood.
- Using erotica to heal wounds, to process the troubling and painful things that are going on in our lives. She talks about a beautiful story featuring a trans character and the problems they’re facing.
- What kinds of erotica Rachel would love to see people create. Plus, she has two open calls for submissions, so if you’re interested in getting your story or idea published, now’s your change!
- A little tease that Rachel reads from a fun, geeky story called “Starstruck” by Lazuli Jones.
Resources discussed in this episode
Rachel’s “I Want To Hold Your Hand” (about a woman who wishes her husband hadn’t lost weight)
Grab your copy of Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 1
Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume 3 call for submissions
The Big Book of Submission, Volume 2 call for submission
Rachel’s LitReactor Class starting in February
In or near L.A.? Check out Rachel’s Erotica Writing 101 Workshop in January.
About Rachel Kramer Bussel
Rachel Kramer Bussel (rachelkramerbussel.com) writes essays and articles about sex, dating, books, pop culture, feminism and body image for publications including The New York Times, The Washington Post, Elle.com and Salon. She’s edited over 60 anthologies, including Come Again: Sex Toy Erotica, The Big Book of Orgasms, Cheeky Spanking Stories, Dirty Dates and is Best Women’s Erotica of the Year series editor. She teaches erotica writing workshops across the country at colleges, conferences and sex toy stores as well as online via LitReactor.com.
Find out more at her blog Lusty Lady or EroticaWriting101.com and follow her @raquelita on Twitter.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: Hey, everyone! Dawn Serra here with Sex Gets Real. This week, we’re going to be talking all about erotica because with me in the studio doing this awesome interview with me is Rachel Kramer Bussel. Hi, Rachel!
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Hi!
Dawn Serra: Hi! I’m so excited to have you here.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I’m excited to be here.
Dawn Serra: Good. Well, for those of you that aren’t familiar with Rachel, if you dabble in erotica you probably are, but Rachel writes essays and articles all about sex, dating, books, pop culture, feminism, body image. We’ll be rolling around in a lot of that today. She’s edited over 60 anthologies, including “Come Again: Sex Toy Erotica,” “The Big Book of Orgasms,” “Cheeky Spanking Stories,” “Dirty Dates,” and the “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year” series, which we’re going to be talking about today. She also teaches erotica writing workshops around the country, and also does some online work. So we’re going to have links to all of the amazing stuff that you do. It sounds like you’re busy.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I am busy. There’s something new every day, but I like that.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. One of the things that fascinates me about your story, I’ve taken an erotica writing class with you at a conference, and I actually produced some stuff in that class that I was really excited about.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Awesome. That makes me so happy. I think sometimes… Sorry to interrupt you. But sometimes people, they’re so focused on getting published. I totally encourage people to explore that if they want to, but also to just enjoy the act of writing and creating ideas and coming up with things that you might never have thought of like. That’s what I love to have happen in my classes.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I think one of the things that helped so much with that was, every time I sit down to write for a purpose, I tend to start obsessing about getting it just right. Instead, in your class, you were just giving us these random starting points of, “OK. You’re erotica. You’re going to write for the next few minutes, and it needs to involve food or needs to involve space,” or something like that. So just getting out of my head and allowing just the fantasies to flow and the words to come, all of the little snippets that I came up with, I was really pleased with. I was like, “I can make something good out of this.”
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Awesome. I mean, the thing is, for me – and I’m sure for a lot of other people – often when I also sit down, if I say, “I’m going to write erotica about cowboys,” or whatever it is, that is not usually how the ideas come to me. I mean, I might jot down some things. I know that’s what I often do in the classes – I give prompts. But I get a lot of ideas when I’m walking around, when I’m looking at advertising or tv or just an image or even an idea. I’ve even had a whole story develop from coming up with a title, and sometimes that’s me overhearing someone say a phrase, and I’m like, “Oh. That’s so good.” Sometimes it never quite happens or it just hasn’t happened yet. I think there’s a show… I don’t even know what it is because I’ve only seen the advertisement. Is it called “Necessary Roughness?” Do you know what I’m talking about?
Dawn Serra: I don’t have television.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: OK. I don’t even know what this show is. It could be called “Unnecessary Roughness,” but I think it’s called “Necessary Roughness.” It might be a sports thing. I’m sure someone’s going to be like, “Oh. I watched that show.” Anyway, maybe it’s not even on. I don’t know. I saw it advertised on a subway once. I just thought, “Necessary Roughness” is the best erotica story title ever.
Dawn Serra: Yes.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: But I just never wrote it. So anyone feel free to take that. But that’s never thought about before – what produced an idea or the spark of an idea. I tend to have more ideas than I know what to do with. But I love that part of the writing process. When I’m teaching, you can see it happen on people’s faces, when you’re sitting in the room with them, where sometimes they’re writing very slowly or their pens hovering or their fingers are hovering over their keyboard, and then they start writing. It almost doesn’t matter exactly what they’re writing, at least in that moment. I mean, yes, if you’re going to go on to do something with it, it does matter what you’re writing. But, to me, that you’re getting, like you said, out of that overthinking mode and into writing, you may be in an erotica class and you might think you’re writing erotica, but that might turn into an essay because it might have sparked some thought about this thing you did once that has always stayed with you. I don’t know. You don’t always wind up with a final product that’s what you set out to do. But that’s OK, too.
Dawn Serra: What is it about erotica that just keeps pulling you back? You’ve been doing this, you’ve edited or worked on over 60 anthologies. You’ve been writing about sex for over 15 years, and erotica has been a big part of that. So what is it about erotica that just keeps you coming back for more?
Rachel Kramer Bussel: That’s a good question because sometimes I’m like, “Oh. Do I want to do this again?” Because I love editing erotic anthologies. There’s a lot of less fun parts where you’re just basically fact-checking a ton. I think what I’m drawn to is the fact that we can eroticize anything. And the possibilities are endless. It’s not that you’re always writing a sex scene that involves different sexual acts than anyone else has ever done. I mean, I don’t think people are recreating the wheel when it comes to what the physical action they’re talking about is. But it’s the way they phrase it. It’s how they form the sentences and what they’re evoking.
And that’s the part that’s always going to be beautiful to me. Because everyone’s different, so everyone’s going to approach that differently. Someone might think just a sigh is the most gorgeous sound ever, and I would love to hear more about that. Or, someone might find a setting that just speaks to them, and that’s where they set their otherwise “normal.” Not that I think there’s a normal kind of sex, but something they think has been done a million times, they might turn on its head by moving the location or by switching up the characters or switching up some aspect of their motivation. I think that’s what keeps drawing me back – that I’ll never come up with all the things that someone else would, even if I sat at my computer 24 hours a day. So when I edit, I get to be like a spy on what hundreds of people are thinking about it at any given time period.
Dawn Serra: As an editor of erotica, I would feel like there’s this almost voyeuristic aspect of getting to dive into other people’s experiences and fantasies around sex. You’re this mastermind that’s absorbing all these other people’s erotic landscapes, and helping to shape them and put something together. It sounds really fun.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: It is fun. Even though I’ve edited over 60 books, there’s still always something new I can learn about sex and about desire and how people think about those things. It’s funny because I did this book, “The Big Book of Submission,” and they’re all very short stories, 1200 words or less, all about BDSM and submission. I’m doing a follow up. And that’s a lot of stories. I mean, 69 in one book about such a specific topic. But they all manage to have their own take on it. They’re not repetitive. I mean, I guess they’re repetitive in the sense that they’re all about one overarching theme. But they’re not repetitive in the sense that you’re reading and you’re like, “Oh. I just read that.” That, to me, is so fun. It’s why I really try to cast a wide net when I’m editing, of people from around the world, and people who are seasoned writers, and people who are new writers. Because I think all those voices are valuable to the world, to readers, and to the book itself.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I love that so much. To me, that offers a lot of permission around my own experience of writing erotic stories. I think so many of us worry… Whether it’s writing a sexy scene for a lover or it’s doing dirty talk, we worry that we’re going to run out of something to say or we’re going to get boring at some point. So I love hearing that. You have probably read, at this point, thousands and thousands of stories. Even just editing a book around submission and having 69 of them, that there’s still this opportunity for so much nuance and so many little versions of different acts that really make them unique. I feel like that just gives permission to all of us of, “Yeah. We all could sit down and write a sex scene involving bondage. But every single person listening to this would come up with something different that made it really exciting.”
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Exactly. I think even though to some people, maybe who haven’t ever experienced bondage, that can sound like it’s just one thing. It’s obviously, if you’ve done it or watched it or looked into it, that there’s so many varieties. I don’t just mean what types of materials you can use, but what part of the body is being bound, why you’re doing it, where it’s taking place, how it’s being done, what part of it is being ritualized? Is it part of a power play? Is it just that this person enjoys the feeling of being bound? Whose point of view is it from? I think that, especially the point of view thing, can really change a story. If you’re writing something from the point of view of someone being bound, that’s going to be pretty different from if you’re telling it from the other person who’s doing the bindings point of view. That’s, when you start to get into the details, where it gets really fascinating.
I think there’s things that writing can do. I’m not pitting writing against movies, but I think that a photo or film can do certain things that writing can’t. But what writing can do is you can really get inside the head of those people. If I was in a room and watching Person A get tied up in one corner and Person B get tied up in another corner, if I’m just watching, I have cues to go on by maybe what they’re saying or what they look like, but I don’t know what’s inside their head.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: With erotica, you get this chance to be inside the head of that person or that character. Those two people could have totally different motivations. Even if the physical action looks the same, what’s going on for them, what’s turning them on could be totally different. And that’s what I love about what erotica can tap into.
Dawn Serra: I really like that. To me, that seems like such an effective way to also communicate your experience with a partner. If you’re writing, it’s one thing to share an experience with somebody. But then one of the things I really like to do is write sexy little scenes like mini erotica and send it to my partner. It never really occurred to me, in explicit terms, that that was an invitation to really see what my thought processes when I’m talking about these scenes, and what I’m focused on, and the sensations that I really zero in on or want. That could be like a really exciting way to connect with someone around your sexual experience.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: It definitely could. I think it really gives you an opportunity to figure it out for yourself. I don’t think everyone operates this way. But I know the way I operate is that when I’m trying to figure out how I feel about something, I usually write about it. Whether that takes as a fictional form or nonfiction, that process alone helps me tap into something that I don’t always just come up with thinking. I don’t always just… It’s not always so obvious.
I think sometimes we have to, like you said earlier, give ourselves permission to go there. Sometimes it may be something dark or sometimes it might be something that maybe makes us uncomfortable, and that’s OK. You can acknowledge that. It doesn’t have to mean, “Just because the origin of this made me uncomfortable, I don’t want to do it again.” Or, maybe it does mean that. But you can explore that. I think what fiction can do is let you explore it either as “you” or as someone else. Maybe you’re putting your own feelings onto a character who’s different from you in some way. They’re clearly not you, but they’ve experienced some things that you’ve also experienced.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. One of the things that you said you really enjoy rolling around in is how much fear you still see around people really claiming these darker or more taboo elements of their fantasies, and really being able to claim the erotic story if it’s really truly on the edges of what someone might consider acceptable and–
Rachel Kramer Bussel: And I think…
Dawn Serra: Oh, go ahead.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Oh, sorry to interrupt you. Well, I think that line of what’s acceptable, that’s so different for everyone. I think there’s some things that society at large might find unacceptable. But even if there are things that, say, you or I or listeners of the show might think, “Oh, that’s not a big deal. You’re bisexual. I know tons of people who are bisexual,” but for some, for an example, there might be people who even writing about that is very edgy for them or brings up questions for them.
I think there’s also a difference between writing about a character who’s, say, bisexual and you being bisexual. I mean, you don’t have to be like your character. I think you can still learn about yourself and about the world of sexuality by exploring characters who are different from you. Because it really forces you to ask, “OK. What’s different? What’s coming from the character, and what’s coming from me? Not that you can always separate that out.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: But one of the exercises I do sometimes with my students is have them write about a character who has a different gender or sexual orientation than their own, right from that person’s point of view. I think, often, we then tend to go to an extreme and make that person so different from us because we’re trying to emphasize, “OK. This is something that I don’t possess,” or “It’s not my experience.” But that person might be way more like you as a person and their personality and their sexual desires than someone who is your gender or sexual orientation. Does that make sense?
Dawn Serra: Yeah, absolutely. It also explains… I’ve been on some of the really big erotica sites over the years and read all kinds of stories. Some of which are 30 pages, 30 webpages long, and they’re really, really detailed, and some that are just one or two pages, and it’s just a quick 45 seconds get-off kind of thing. But what I’ve noticed when I’m on those sites is there tends to be so many erotic stories around the topics that we consider very taboo in our culture – lots of incest stories, lots of stories around sisters or stepmoms or stepdads – and really playing with those things that we aren’t really allowed to talk about. But if I write about it, then it gives me an opportunity to express some of these things that I have. So, yeah.
As you’re talking about being able to really explore something new or different, it really does feel like a safe space to be able to let a little bit of some of that darkness out and see what’s in there and tease it out – “Oh, I kind of like that, and this feels safe. So maybe I’ll do it a little bit more and a little bit more and see what’s in there.”
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I mean, I think probably, all of us have something somewhere inside of us that is taboo or considered taboo in some way, that maybe that’s a big part of our sexuality or maybe it’s very minute part. I mean, I don’t even know what you would call something that you might fantasize about, but not really claim as your own sexual desire. Maybe it’s like a fantasy, but that you want to stay a fantasy. I don’t really know where that goes, what category that’s in.
But those are the things that I often like to explore in my writing, and that I think people do like to read about, whether it’s because it’s taboo or because it’s just some else’s experience. I think that we all – maybe we all is too broad – but a lot of people do censor themselves even when they’re in the writing process. Because I think we tend to make this leap of, “OK. I’m ready to get on my computer, in five seconds, millions of people are going to see this.” I think there’s this assumption maybe that as soon as you write it, you’re branding yourself or your marketing that this is something I’m interested in. For a lot of people, that is a problem or it brings up problems for them.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Even though we have come a long way, even since I started writing erotica in the last 15 years, it is much more acceptable. People know what it is. In large part, thanks to Fifty Shades, which is a whole other topic. But I do think Fifty Shades has brought more awareness of people reading erotica and erotic romance. But there’s still tons of people who would either get disowned by their family or fired from their job or have suffered consequences if the fact that they wrote erotica was known to everyone around them. I don’t know when that is going to go away entirely.
Dawn Serra: You mentioned that you’ve seen a lot of growth around erotica, and that you’ve been doing this for a number of years. I would love to know, over the course of your time and your career in erotica, what are some of the things that really stand out as somewhat constant?
Rachel Kramer Bussel: That’s a good question. Actually, I don’t really know exactly how to answer that. Because I think that erotica has been around for a long time, and that there have always been people who’ve wanted to read it. But I think I’m going to answer in a backwards way. I think one of the things we’re seeing more of now is more erotica out there, especially from e-publishers that is about more niche subjects. Some of which may be taboo, but some of which are just things that a print publisher probably wouldn’t take a chance on because they might think, “Oh. There’s not enough people interested in this.”
I think that it’s not that the interest in some of these topics is new. I’m sure there’s always been people interested in them. But with the advent of the internet, people have found places to discuss them, like you were talking about. Now with e-publishing, there’s not as much of a risk to put out an ebook. It doesn’t cost as much. And there’s no physical product sitting in a warehouse or something. I think that if whatever kind of fantasy or subject you’re interested in, you can find erotica about it. If for some reason you can’t, you can write that and publish it. It’s amazing the turnaround time is almost nothing. You see things in the news, and then the next day Chuck Tingle – which I’m sure there’ll be a link in the show notes – Chuck Tingle is this guy who writes these crazy sounding erotica, ebooks about all sorts of things. He’ll just take something that’s happening in the news like Brexit – Britain’s vote around that – and he, I believe, I’m going to confirm this, wrote an ebook about getting pounded by Brexit or something. I’m going to check that I’m not making this up. But I don’t think I could make that up.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: That’s hilarious and awesome that people are responding in real time to what’s going on in the world. Sometimes they’re satirizing it, sometimes they’re mocking it, but they’re also having fun with it and eroticizing it. And I think that’s wonderful. I think that’s such a gift to writers and readers that you can put your work out, and people around the world can access it in ways that they couldn’t 20 or 30 years ago.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. The accessibility has certainly changed.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Yeah. I think that, not that everyone’s going to want to write about whatever the hot topic of the news is, but you can. OK. I’m going to read the exact title which I never could have memorized of this Chuck Tingle… There’s actually two. One is called “Pounded by the Pound: Turned Gay by the Socioeconomic Implications of Britain Leaving the European Union.” That came out on June 24th. Then he put out another one on July 2nd – clearly, just very soon after – “Slammed by the Substantial Amount of Press Generated by my Book Pounded by the Pound.” You have to love that he not only wrote one book about that, but then turn the next one into another one. And the whole long, super long, “Slammed by the Substantial Amount of Press” title is on the book cover. Granted, it’s an ebook cover, but still I just think that’s hilarious and awesome. I’m very amused by Chuck Tingle.
Dawn Serra: See. So to all of our listeners who have any idea around writing erotica or sex stories, you can do it.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Yes. If you take anything away from the proliferation of just erotic writing out there, I think anyone can do it. Does that mean you’ll self-publish and immediately sell millions of copies? Not necessarily. You might though. But I think that you can find your audience, especially on social media. I mean, maybe you’re interested in something. I’m trying to think of something super obscure. Of course, the first thing my eyes lands on as I’m looking around my room is Hello Kitty. I don’t want to go there with Hello Kitty erotica. I’m sure it exists. So I’m going to choose something else.
Well, OK. The other thing that is all around my room is books. It reminds me of a story I published called “Book Lover” by Donna George Storey, that I think was in “The Big Book of Orgasms.” It was about a woman with a book fetish. Let’s just say the smell of books turns you on. Feeling them, touching them as it happens in this story, and you’re like, “OK. What do I do with this book fetish?” I mean, I would just Google “book fetish” – I don’t think I’ve ever done that – or whatever it is that you want to write about. Whether that’s actually your personal fetish or not, you can connect with other people who share that or create a form for that somehow. Whether that could be about erotica, that could be a blog or something. But I think that’s one of the beauties of the internet is that people who do share those interests can find each other. I think that’s been the case for erotica writers, especially. They can build up their audiences in ways that I don’t think are necessarily available before anyone can have a website or a blog.
Dawn Serra: So having read so many different kinds of stories, what, to you, really makes for a solid piece of erotica? Something that you start reading it, and you want to finish it.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: This is both a hard and an easy question. Because, in a way, it’s an “I know it when I see it,” kind of situation. But I think what really makes it compelling is that I want to feel like I know what that character is thinking and feeling. I want to know why what they’re doing turns them on. However you want to show me that or tell me that, that’s fine. It doesn’t have… You don’t literally have to say, “This is turning me on because…”
But in addition to knowing what they’re doing with their bodies, I want to know why that thing is so exciting to them in that moment? When an author can do that, when they can take me right inside that person’s head and body, and I can feel like, “Oh. That totally makes sense that you would be turned on by…” whatever it is – books or Hello Kitty or something. Whether that’s something I would be turned on by or not, that’s not the point. The point is that I’m swept away in your story, and I’m totally right there with you, even if after I turn the last page, I’m a little uncomfortable, like, “Oh. I didn’t know I could be turned on by that.”
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think that’s great when writers can make a reader think, “Woah. What did I just read? What’s happening there? Why did I enjoy that when I wouldn’t have thought I would enjoy that?” While I don’t have a simple hook to say, “This is the magic ticket to how to write erotica,” I think you really want to understand before you start writing or as you’re writing what turns your characters on about what they’re doing. Then do your best to bring that to life on the page.
Dawn Serra: I think that’s so fascinating. Because as you are talking, it occurred to me that I think sometimes when I’m reading erotica, it’s not so much that the topic itself is turning me on, but the character getting aroused is turning me on.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: It’s not to say you go only into their mindset and ignore the physical side of it. But for instance, I’ve edited a couple of books of spanking erotica. Even though I personally am interested in spanking, I love reading about it, if all I was reading was like, “And then I bent over, and the blow landed. And it was hard, and it was exciting,” you have to really bring that to life, especially if you’re writing about something like that, where, by the nature of what it is, you’re going to have similarities between story after story. So you really have to make it creative and make it compelling. And find maybe a new – not necessarily totally new but a nuanced or intriguing way of talking about something that… I would presume that if you’re picking up a book of spanking erotica, you’re either already interested in it or maybe have read it some spanking erotica before. I mean, you probably know, at least, a little bit about what you’re getting. I think it’s a challenge to try to surprise that reader who thinks, “OK. I know what this is going to be about,” and then all of a sudden, it’s different than what they expected.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I read a story once that had a twist in it, and it made me just uncomfortable enough that I was like, “I don’t know if I would admit to anyone I read this.” But aroused enough that when I finished the story, I was like, “Well, now, I have to go take care of some business.” I really liked that conflict going on inside me of, “God that made me so uncomfortable,” and, “I’m so turned on.”
It was this interesting story about a train, and a woman was using this piston in the engine room of the train to fuck herself while the guys working on the train were watching. It was super technical. This person clearly knew way more about trains than I ever would. But I wasn’t expecting the story to go there. I was expecting the story to be like, “She seduced him, and then they had sex while the train was moving,” or the passenger saw or something like that. But for the scene to end with her fucking herself with the actual train–
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I love that.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, right. I was like, “Woah! That sounds so intense.” My logic brain was like, “That’s so dangerous. Oh, my god.” But my body and my imagination were like, “Holy shit! That’s so intense.” It was just really well-written with a lot of explanation of the feelings and the sensations. I got so turned on by it. And I loved that.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Without having read that, I feel like what you’re saying is that part of what turns you on was that this character was so immersed in that world that she was so swept away by all the mechanics, literally, of what was happening. I thought of a good example of what I was trying to say before.
In one of my classes, someone wound up writing a story that… I don’t know if I would say it was about this, but necrophilia happened in the story. If you were to ask me before I had read that, “What do you think about necrophilia?” I probably would have had a negative reaction. I’m not saying, “OK. Everyone, send me erotica stories about necrophilia.” I don’t even know if my publisher will let me publish that. But it actually was a really beautiful love story. I don’t want to give away what exactly was happening, but it was tender and romantic. It wasn’t, I guess, grotesque. Or, it wasn’t what I would have thought it would be.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think that’s because it was really about these characters. It wasn’t like, “Let me set out to eroticize necrophilia.” It was, “This is the end result of a long process between these people.” That is something – that surprise element or that being able to be turned on by something – that maybe rationally, wouldn’t turn you on and would even do the opposite is what I really think erotica excels at.
I mean, there’s also fiction, other kinds of fiction, that you might be interested in that are about things you don’t want to read about. I tend to tune out after I see too many news stories about a murder, shooting. I mean, sometimes it’s just such an onslaught, you’re like, “OK. I want to watch Real Housewives.” But I read tons of murder mysteries because it’s different. It’s light hearted. Not that erotica has to be light hearted, but I think that the things we read, we read for different purposes. I think some people read erotica simply to be turned on, whether they’re reading with a partner or they’re reading alone and masturbating. But I also think it can stay with you and really turn your mind on as well. That’s not to say it has to or that all erotica is going to do that, but I think it can. The ones that… The erotica that I’ve read that stayed with me. I might not even remember the exact book it was from or what the story was called. Sometimes I’ll remember the title or the author or one element, but I’ll remember how I felt as I was reading it.
Dawn Serra: One of the things that I adore about erotica is exactly what you’re saying. There’s certain elements to certain stories. I could never tell you what book they were in or what the title was. But I can remember these little moments that just sink their teeth into me and never let go of. Now, I really remember being turned on by certain scenes or certain elements of scenes. Also, how reading erotica has helped me to be more creative in my own sex life and my own fantasy landscape because it’s opened my world to so many new things.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think that that’s also true. I mean, whether you’re reading about people who are like you or people who are totally different from you, you can still adapt what you’re reading into your own life if you want to. Sometimes you don’t necessarily set out to do that, but an image might stay with you. You might think, “OK. Maybe physically, I can’t do that exact thing. But I want to try to do something similar.” And this is a little bit of a switch from what we’re just talking about. But I know I just said erotica can be just pure fantasy or entertainment, which I do believe. But I also think it can be political or it can be…
There are elements of erotica that I think can help broaden people’s perspective of what sex is, what desire is, and who we desire. In my own work, I often have a lot of bisexual characters, and that’s not always a prominent part of the story. It’s not necessarily that they’re having sex with partners of different genders or even mentioning it lots of times, but it might be one mention or just acknowledging it or referring to it.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Another thing that is important to me personally, and I’ve written about this in the nonfiction world is writing about characters of size, especially men. I’ve edited a book called “Curvy Girls,” which is about curvy girls, fat women, larger women. I do think there’s this big handsome man trope in some romance and erotica, but I think that there could be more of it. So I’ve written a few stories where it’s very clear that the characters are, I wouldn’t say fetishizing a person because of their size, but they find these larger men exciting and arousing.
There’s one story I wrote called “I Want to Hold Your Hand,” which I think I put on my Goodreads page as a free read, where it’s about a woman whose husband has lost a lot of weight. All of a sudden, all these women are hitting on him and noticing him that hadn’t before. And he’s kind of excited by that. But she feels like, “Oh.” She misses the old him. She didn’t necessarily want him to lose the weight. I think that’s a perspective you don’t see that often in our culture generally or in erotica. I think the erotica and romance I read, I mean, there’s a lot of washboard abs and six packs, and this idea that there’s only one body tape for men that’s the best or a narrow range.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think there’s more room for plus size heroines in romance and erotica than there is– Or, we see more than we do bigger guys. I think that I would like to see more variety, not just in terms of weight, but in physical appearance, generally. Not everyone has to have the so-called perfect body. Which, obviously, I don’t think there’s any such thing as this mythical perfect body that everyone is going to try to look the same. But I think that it can be a default when we’re writing erotica. Maybe it’s because people think it’s a fantasy, and that’s what everyone wants to read about.
But I think again, just as an anthology editor, that can get boring if every character has a flat stomach, and if every woman has big boobs. I mean, I think that there’s so many of these traits that we tend to think, “Oh, that’s the ideal.” But, first of all, that’s not the ideal for everyone. There’s plenty of people who don’t necessarily want a lover who is that so-called ideal, and there’s also plenty of people who don’t fit that. I want to see more erotica about those people, about the person who looks like George Costanza or something, like the guy who’s maybe bald but not in the sexy bald way that we think of or whatever it is. I think that that’s something where people can bring their own experiences. Maybe you’re a man who’s five foot three, and however you feel about being five foot three, you can write about the character who shares that trade and just explore that.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think another thing I wanted to say is that erotica can tackle both what’s happening in society and what’s happening in our lives that isn’t ideal. Not every sentence of an erotica story has to be about the best, most amazing sex, and awesome things happening. There can be really dark things or troubling things or people using sex as a way to heal from some of these problems that they face.
There is some of that in “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume One.” There’s a story called “Out of the Ordinary” by Rose P. Lethe. It’s about a couple where one of them is trans and faces transphobia and erasure by their family, and just isn’t really accepted there. This character finds acceptance, and just talks about that within their relationship. That’s not necessarily what the story is about, but I think it’s an essential part of the story. So you can mix in the sexual, erotic, exciting elements with the real life, not always rosy parts of what’s going on, and connect those. Maybe you know someone’s… I’m not saying have sex at a funeral, but to think that sex stops when we’re going through breakups or death or illness. Sex is also a part of that. It might change. I mean, it’s probably going to be different during those tougher times. But I think erotica can explore how sex is a part of our lives during those moments, too.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Now, that being said, if I’m editing an anthology, I’m probably not going to publish 20 out of 25 stories that are all about death or illness because I think that people do read erotica as an escape. But I think there’s a balance, and that’s why I love getting to edit anthologies where maybe the bulk of them are about happier topics. But some of them are maybe about things that are a little more challenging to read about, but I think are also rewarding to read about. I think they can make a statement through the lens of erotica. I think, for writers, you just have to remember you still have to make it erotic. It’s not an essay. You’re not trying to make a point per se. You’re weaving that into the character’s sex lives.
Dawn Serra: I love everything that you just said. To me, some of my favorite stories have been somewhat political or included some of that pain and personal struggle. I read this really wonderful story about a trans woman who was at a play party and got strapped up in a doorframe, and all these people were fucking her. She had had some transphobic experiences, and being at this play party and having all these people desire her and fuck her, was this really beautiful release. That was also really hot to read because it was just like there was so many sensations and people fucking, and it was great. But I loved that it was something I hadn’t read before. That also allowed me to explore something that was really sexy and at the same time really healing for the character. So, yeah. I mean, I totally love that.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: That sounds wonderful. I think that, again, that’s a great example of figuring out how the erotic element fits in with the maybe non-erotic elements. I think that if you think about it in real life terms, I mean, some of the most powerful sexual experiences I’ve had have been ones that are tinge with something else. Maybe something darker is going on in my life, and sex is a way to either escape that or process that or grapple with it or just enjoy myself for a little while.
Sex doesn’t exist just in a vacuum. I think sometimes erotica can make it seem like that, and that’s OK. I’m not suggesting everyone go write the darkest erotica. They can, but you do have permission to write the tone of it, the emotional pole of it can encompass the span of our lives. I’ve written what I call breakup erotica, and it’s definitely dark. I mean, people have told me it’s made them cry. I think it’s some of the most poetic erotica I’ve written and moving. I think all of those stories came out of real life breakups. But that was how I processed it. That was how I dealt with it. It was about mourning loss in that relationship and what letting go of that meant to the character, who was basically me. But that’s OK, too.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Would there be a market for a whole book of breakup erotica? I don’t know. I think that might be too dark, at least, for the marketplace. But that doesn’t mean you can’t explore that in your writing. I think it does give this realism to a fiction story to know that sex is this reward for having gone through something else, like you were talking about. Maybe they wouldn’t call it a reward. Maybe that’s not going to ring true for everyone. But I think it can be this celebration amidst other not so celebratory things happening.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. Just circling back to writing about larger men. One of the things that has been really powerful for me as a fat woman is reading stories and seeing feminist porn that include bodies like mine. Where it’s not about the fetish, it’s about just genuinely appreciating this body. It’s like it doesn’t really matter what size your body is. It’s just gorgeous. And there’s been a lot of healing around that.
I don’t think I’ve ever read an erotica that included a male character of size. So to be conscious of that and to actually be working to create in that space sounds so wonderful. Because I know I’ve certainly had lovers in the past who had bodies like George Costanza’s or who had really super strong arms and super strong legs, but had a nice big, round tight belly that hung over his pants or who had smaller than average cocks or whatever it is, and have these like amazing, hot, super sexy experiences with them. But you wouldn’t see that kind of body lauded as sexually arousing in most mainstream sex scenes. So I love that there’s some deliberate choices around that because I really, really appreciate challenging what you said about this assumption that in order to be sexy, you need to be super thin and fit.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think, both around size and just features and on a lot of things. Sometimes I get this assignment to write about a celebrity, erotica involving a celebrity. That’s how I got my start. I wrote a story called “Monica and Me,” about Monica Lewinsky. That was actually for a book called “Star Fucker,” which was all about celebrities. When I do this exercise, it’s always really interesting because sometimes people will go for a Brad Pitt or Angelina Jolie, people who are held up as these so-called perfect, and also white, and also traditionally attractive people.
But a lot of people will go for, I would guess, I would say, off the beaten path. Sometimes they’ll go for someone who is not necessarily an A-list, boldface name that everyone would recognize, but they’re a celebrity in their world. Maybe they’re famous for something other than their looks. Maybe they’re famous for playing an instrument or doing a sport or whatever it is. To the people who follow that, they’re as famous as Angelina Jolie. I think it’s a myth and a falsehood to assume that everyone wants to have sex with Brad Pitt.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Now, I mean, I’m sure a lot of people would want to have sex with Brad Pitt if he was there and naked, and like, “Hey, let’s get it on.” I’m not saying– Lots of people would probably take him up on that offer, but that doesn’t mean that he’s the only model of attractive maleness on offer. I think that even if your first instinct is to write about a Brad Pitt, you can also look at your second or third instinct and think about, “Who do we tend to exclude on these Best Dressed lists or most attractive or hottest?” I think we still tend to, as a culture, not necessarily everyone… There’s plenty of media that I read that doesn’t do this, but in the broader culture, People’s Most Beautiful Issue, we make these assumptions that everyone finds these people attractive. That’s not to knock those people, but also to say that there’s plenty of other body types and features and types of human beings out there that people do find attractive.
I do think it can be a line between fetishizing someone and writing about why they’re attractive, like you were talking about before. But I think that can be done, and when it’s done well, you can get insight into why someone would be attracted to someone who’s super short and nerdy or shy or other traits that, as a culture, we don’t tend to validate.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I think shy people are not as praised in terms of what I was just talking about as more outgoing people because it seems more attractive to be outgoing. But that shy person may totally have the biggest fantasies and might be an amazing lover. But you just have to draw them out a little more. That’s another example of where, I think, I would like to read more about characters who maybe don’t seem to be what our cultural ideal of personality is, kind of the equivalent of body, but might have totally fascinating things going on inside their minds.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my gosh. That makes me so excited. Oh, my gosh. You could write erotica about people with depression or anxiety or who are super shy. Now my mind’s going all these places.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I would love to read about that. I think that erotica, especially the act, the writing of it, can be a way to explore these things that we don’t always get to see or hear about. Because maybe people who deal with those things aren’t as open about it or don’t want to talk about it. And that’s not to say that if, let’s say, you suffer from depression, that you are obligated somehow to exhaust that in the form of erotica. But I think if you wanted to or if maybe you’ve had a partner who’s dealt with that,and you know what that’s like, to really get at that in fiction and not fetishize it, but just talk about how that affects someone’s personal life and desire and sexuality, for better or worse.
I mean, there may be positive elements. There may be negative elements. But those can be woven into an erotica story in a way that that might help people. I mean, I don’t think you want to sit down and say, “I’m going to help people by writing an erotica story,” because you just don’t know how they’re going to take it. But I think what you can do is say, “I’m going to talk about something that I have knowledge about that I want to explore or that I don’t see written about.”
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Sometimes when I write my calls for submissions, I’m like, “OK. I’d like to see stories about this setting or this type of person.” But there’s also, I wanted to know about the things that you don’t see enough of in our culture, in erotica. Maybe you’re like, “Oh. I wish there were more stories about x.” “Well, if you wrote that, I can promise I’m going to read it. I can’t promise I’m going to publish it.” I think that when you do see a hole in the market like that, and it’s something you would buy, that’s a sign that there’s probably other people also thinking that.
Dawn Serra: I was wondering if you had any samples that you might read to us today.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I do. Then I’m like, “Oh, which one should I read?” But there is a story that I really love. It’s a humorous one. I think sometimes I tend to go for the humorous stories because they’re fun. But within the humor, there’s also something larger going on in the story, I think. One of the reasons I personally liked it is that I’ve never been to Comic Con. I consider myself nerdy and geeky – not in the Comic Con nerdy and geeky way. I don’t really know anything about superheroes. There’s sort of holes in my pop cultural knowledge. So the fact that this is set at Comic Con, I really enjoyed ‘cause it’s this little bit of slice of life of that world. I’m going to read a little bit of “Starstruck” by Lazuli Jones from “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume One.”
“Oh, god! He’s as gorgeous as he ever was. The banner hanging over the table was displaying a half body shot of Tecton, the ebony skin superhero who made frequent visits to my young adult fantasies. In the shot, Tecton wore his muscle-hugging gold costume, the spandex riddled with rocky patterns. His hair was styled into small dreads, from the center of a thin gold mask, Tecton’s sharp, black eyes stared down. His face was stern, but gentle; sharp but soothing,” – the opposite of what I said.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: “The shot was from 1993. I recognized it because I had the same picture cut out from the magazine and taped to my bedroom mirror. I stared at it until I got hot and weak in the knees, and carefully took the picture down to bring to bed with me. How else was a nerdy black girl going to get her sexy kicks in the 90s, Tecton was all muscle and deep, rumbling voice. But, god! The whole premise of his character was that he was a gentle giant.
By day, he was Tyrell Jackson, a construction worker with a secret identity. By night, he was part of the titular Elemental Heroes, a six-person superhero team. In real life, he was Desmond Kyle, the well-built and deep-voiced hunk who hadn’t acted much since the 90s. Being typecast was a stroke of bad luck. Beneath the banner, 20 years older, but still radiating sex, Desmond Kyle sat in a muted scarlet dress shirt and smiled and shook hands and signed autographs. The dreads of his youth had been replaced with a short cut, streaked with silver. I stood four people away, holding a glossy 8 x 10 of Desmond and trying to look chill.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Though my heart was pounding like a Tyrell Jackson’s jackhammer, I was surprised to see how short the line was. The only people ahead of me were chunky, nerdy boys. I was the only woman in line. I was the only black person in line. I was the only person above age 40 in line. Did I care? Oh, hell no! This was the first time in years Desmond Kyle was making a Comic Con appearance, and I was going to meet him. I was going to talk to him, shake his hand, get him to remember me.”
So there is more that happens, you can read about in “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume One.” I really love the humor in the story. But also, I mean, I love a lot of things about it. But I really like that, later when we do meet him, while it’s from her point of view, we do get a little insight into this guy who was really lauded as this sexy superhero guy. But you get the sense that, a.) he’s been a little bit forgotten and doesn’t have million fans throwing themselves at him, and that also, he’s a real person behind that character. I think that’s why I really love the celebrity exercise because even if you are writing a story about Brad Pitt, and maybe it’s from his point of view, who knows? I don’t know. I haven’t personally written that, but I think it is interesting to think about what would it be like to be a celebrity and have millions of people lust after you? Is that all it’s cracked up to be? You know what I mean?
Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. I love the little teaser that you read. I think you’re so right. There’s this wonderful… I mean, it’s so clear to me having that picture taped to your bedroom mirror and just staring at it and getting turned on, and then taking it to bed with you. I did that with my Keanu Reeves posters. I think that’s something that so many of us can relate to from our youth. But then to still have those feelings as an adult, and to have an opportunity to live your way into this teenage fantasy, I feel like that could go really fun places.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I will confess that – this is a very long time ago. I think it was like 30 years ago because I’m 40 – I had a picture of Charlie Sheen who I no longer lust after. I would hope that I wouldn’t given some of the things he’s done, many of the things he’s done. But I did have a picture of him from his very early acting days on my wall. I had this big silkscreen of Madonna, who I am still a fan of.
But I think what’s exciting about that story, to me, it was interesting because it was set at Comic Con. But also, we’ve all been a fan of someone, whether or not we took their picture to bed with us. I mean, I think that act of being a fan is arousing and exciting in it’s way. Because there’s just an energy to it that I think she really tapped into.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I love how even though the story is about this fan experience, and then I’m assuming it starts to become sexy and something happens, what’s also underneath that is some racial politics, like a black girl.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: She’s talking about being one of a few and the only one, the only black person, in that line. He’s sort of a little bit odd man out in the setting as well. They don’t really get into why his career’s been neglected. But I think there’s a lot going on in there, which it is a very funny story. It being set at Comic Con, there’s this natural humor to it. But there are other things threaded throughout it.
I think that’s a great example of something where, if you’re writing fiction – this could apply to erotica or other things – I mean, you don’t necessarily have to beat people over the head with your political point to make a political point. You don’t have to have it there in every sentence. You don’t have to say, “I’m making a political point.” You can weave it in, which is, like when I was talking about the bigger men stories, nowhere in those do I say anything about politics per se. But, the idea for me is writing about something that’s important to me personally. Then I deal with it in my own relationship and fantasies, but also just broadening readers’ ideas of what kind of person we consider sexy.
Dawn Serra: Well, speaking of writing our stories, do you have any open calls for submission right now that listeners might want to pay attention to?
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I do. I have two of them. “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year, Volume Three” is accepting submissions through December 1st. The “Big Book of Submission, Volume Two” is accepting submissions through January 10th. The Women’s Erotica One is open to women authors as well as gender queer and nonbinary authors, and the other one is open to anyone. I definitely encourage anyone listening who’s at all intrigued to check out the calls. They’re pretty detailed, and I think the biggest piece of advice I can give is to read the whole thing and follow it closely. If you have a question, ask ahead of time. But I try to put everything you might want to know in the call without saying, “I only want to read stories about this.” Because really, I’m open to a story about pretty much anything, as long as it’s consensual. There’s one or two things that are taboo. The characters have to be over 18 and no scat and no incest. But other than that, I’m really open to anything and everything.
Dawn Serra: Well, we will have links to those calls on dawnserra.com. I would love for you to share with everyone any classes you have coming up or any articles and where they can find you online.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: I am teaching in-person and erotica writing workshop in Los Angeles at the Ripped Bodice. It’s actually in Culver City on January 29th, and online at litreactor.com starting February 7th. I’m teaching a four-week erotica writing class. That one should be up soon. You can follow me where I post the most is on Twitter at @raquelita – RAQUELITA. You can also get my newsletter by signing up at rachelkramerbussel.com. I do monthly book giveaways there.
Dawn Serra: Oh, awesome. Well, I will have links to your Twitter and your website and the calls for submissions on dawnserra.com for this episode. So everyone, please check it out and follow Rachel, and check out all the amazing work that she’s constantly doing. You write articles for huge publications like New York Times and Washington Post and elle.com all the time too, right?
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Yes. I also do nonfiction, which is a nice counterbalance to the erotica. Because there I have to be much more precise. I think when I get to write erotica, I can be more free. Sometimes I’ll take something that happened to me, but I’ll totally tweak it and change it. And it’s really fun to do that.
Dawn Serra: Yay! Well, thank you so much for coming on the show this week and sharing all about erotica with us.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Thank you. This was a super fascinating discussion. Now, I’m like, “Oh, I want to read shy erotica.” Some of the things I said I wasn’t planning to say, but I’m like, “That sounds super fascinating.” So please write that, especially if you’re the shy thing. I think that would be really fun to read about.
Dawn Serra: And it could be so sweet too, but then have this really nasty naughty surprise or something.
Rachel Kramer Bussel: Exactly.
Dawn Serra: Well, I want to thank everyone who tuned in this week to hear all about erotica. Hopefully, you will check out the “Best Women’s Erotica of the Year” books that Rachel is putting out. If you are tempted to write something, please make sure you submit that to Rachel. Or, if you have a little tidbit you want to share with me every once in a while I read those on air. So go to dawnserra.com, and you can use this contact form to send questions or little stories in. I would appreciate that. You can also follow Sex Gets Real on both Twitter and Facebook. Thank you so much. I will talk to you next week. This is Dawn Serra. Bye!