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There is something so delicious in talking about something that I have so little experience with. This week’s chat with Princess Kali is just that – a fun, playful talk about erotic humiliation, objectification, mastering kink, and being a Dominatrix. It’s rich, it’s approachable, and it’s terribly intriguing.
Throughout the episode, Princess Kali drops truthbomb after truthbomb. I adore her story of how she got started as a stripper and Dominatrix. It’s not often you find a woman who recognizes that men will be objectifying her simply because she’s a woman, and so decides to make a profit off of that behavior.
We dig into what humiliation is and why people crave it, how you can tap into your inner Dominant, and what happens when people stifle and ignore their deep sexual desires. Plus, tips for getting your submissive involved in scene planning!
As Princess Kali says, kink is a team sport. I can’t wait for you to hear this chat.
Follow Dawn on Instagram.
In this episode, Princess Kali and Dawn talk about:
- Erotic humiliation: what is it, why do folks do it, and what are some misconceptions around it? Princess Kali has literally written the book on it, “Enough to Make You Blush: Exploring Erotic Humiliaton”.
- Slut space, which is a phrase Kali has coined, similar to sub space and top space. It’s all about slutty, sexual objectification that Kali has seen as a common thread among folks who love humiliation play.
- Rape fantasies versus ravishment fantasies. It’s less about violence and more about being desired and having someone act on that desire to help cis women, specifically, overcome the social taboos around sex.
- Ways people misunderstand erotic humiliation and why blanket techniques, like assuming name-calling is embarrassing for everyone, doesn’t work.
- Activity-based kink versus feelings-based kink, and why focusing only on the activity is bullshit. Kali has a beautiful explanation for a juicier, more authentic way to do kink.
- Becoming masterful at kink and Kali’s suggestion for the best way to do that. It is NOT doing all of the kink things all at once.
- KinkAcademy and why it’s so critical that we have a way to learn about sex, while watching diverse bodies engaged in the actual sex acts being discussed. It’s not porn-utainment. It’s real education in a way you don’t normally see in the world.
- The number one misconception that people have about working with a Dominatrix. Princess Kali’s answer may surprise you.
- Ethical versus unethica sexual expression with professional sex workers, specifically for married folks who have a spouse who doesn’t understand their sexual needs.
Resources discussed in this episode
KinkAcademy.com – over 1400 educational videos on kink
“Enough to Make You Blush: Exploring Erotic Humiliation”
About Princess Kali
Princess Kali takes her kink seriously and has spent over fourteen years exploring not only the how but the why of alternative lifestyles. Her experience working as a professional dominatrix has given her a unique understanding of the motivations behind erotic humiliation play as well as a passion for helping people participate in it more safely and enjoyably.
Her dynamic and engaging style of presenting has been welcomed at more than 150 venues including kink events such as Dark Odyssey, Fetish Fair Fleamarket, Kink in the Caribbean, and IMsL as well as mainstream venues such as Harvard University and SXSW.
Princess Kali is currently focusing on personal coaching and group workshops to help people safely discover their own style of kink with the benefit of her experience and guidance. Kali resides in the San Francisco area but travels often for workshops and events. You can also follower her on Twitter @princess_kali.
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Episode Transcript
Dawn Serra: Hey, everyone! Welcome to Sex Gets Real. This is Dawn Serra. This week, I have an expert talking about something we have not really explored on the show before, and I can’t wait for you to hear all about it. So I want to welcome you. Hello to Princess Kali.
Princess Kali: Hello, hello. Thanks for having me
Dawn Serra: You’re welcome. I want to tell everybody, for those of you that don’t know, Princess Kali – it’s KALI – Princess Kali is an author, an entrepreneur, a coach, and a speaker. You’ve published a book called “Enough to Make You Blush: Exploring Erotic Humiliation,” which is going to be one of the things that we spend a lot of time rolling around in today. Then we’re going to go all kinds of kink and dominatrix stuff and all this goodness. I’m so excited you’re here. Yes!
Princess Kali: Me too!
Dawn Serra: I’d love to start with this book that you wrote, “Enough to Make You Blush: Exploring Erotic Humiliation.” For our listeners who may not know, can you just give us the 10,000 foot view of what erotic humiliation is?
Princess Kali: Erotic humiliation is something that’s not always even understood by kinky people, but essentially, it is an arousal response to what would be considered traditionally negative experiences or feelings such as embarrassment or degradation or shame. These experiences then become recontextualized within a consensual framework that allows an experience of being turned on and kind of erotic energy to be attached to these taboo feelings.
Dawn Serra: I’m so fascinated by this. I love that you’re bringing up all of these really interesting experiences that most people in their day-to-day lives would try to avoid – so things like embarrassment, humiliation, degradation, even objectification. And here we’re talking about purposely cultivating that feeling as part of your arousal experience and your erotic experience, and allowing the taboo to feel squeaky and yucky for fun.
Princess Kali: Yes, but context really matters. Even people who are heavy humiliation fetishists don’t like to get yelled at by their boss in front of their colleagues because the context is different. Just the same way as people who like to be spanked in the bedroom don’t want somebody to come up and kick them in the shin. There is a difference between good pain and bad pain. And that is definitely true for erotic humiliation.
Context and consent is a huge part of it. But, yeah. Basically, these kinksters that are into this kind of play are seeking out a particular version of experiences that a lot of people really try pretty hard to avoid.
Dawn Serra: I would love to know, I know one of the things that has drawn me to kink over the years is the fact that there’s literally limitless possibilities with how someone can live their way into and experience their kink. But at the same time, there’s some common threads that we see like with people who enjoy bondage or SM and that kind of stuff.
So I’d love to know, for people who are interested in the erotic humiliation, degradation, is there a couple of scenes or experiences that come up as a little bit more common that maybe you could share some examples with our listeners?
Princess Kali: Most definitely. A phrase that I’ve coined recently is “slut space.” Kinksters talk a lot about top space and subspace and these power dynamic-focused head spaces. I have found that the slutty sexual objectification is one of the most popular forms of erotic embarrassment play across the gender spectrum. Really, I mean, even traditionally-identified masculine individuals aren’t necessarily celebrated for being slutty. I mean, obviously, there’s the whole gender dynamic of women being horses and men being players. But when that gets turned on its head, then this idea of sexual objectification becomes actually really, really popular for a lot of people.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I can totally see that.
Princess Kali: So sexual objectification and “slut space” and being treated as a sexual object, I think, is one of the most common experiences for a desire for humiliation play because there is this really great dynamic between being sexually desired and all of the social taboos around wanting to be desired and wanting to have sexual expression and all that kind of stuff.
Really, humiliation, if I can just give this little bit of context, too. Humiliation deals in social taboos – that is the core nature of all humiliation play. That to get meta for just a moment, you couldn’t have humiliation play without misogyny and sexism, classism, and even racism. I mean, these social experiences are a critical component of what erotic humiliation is. That the reason that these things are so attractive is because they’re not supposed to be.
Dawn Serra: Oh, I love that. Because they’re not supposed to be, but they are.
Princess Kali: Yeah, because we can’t… A common saying is the number one fantasy for women are rape fantasies. But I don’t think that that is accurate language. I believe that it’s ravishment fantasy. Because women are socially taught not to have desire or be desired. So the way that we then get around this socialization is by creating an environment where we give up the choice – “Oh, gosh. Golly gee! What could I have done? He overtook me.” And that allows us to get around the socializations to fulfill our sexual desires that are not always reasonable or politically correct.
Dawn Serra: I completely agree with that. I completely agree with that. Because almost every single time I talk to someone about their rape fantasies, it’s incredibly pleasurable, and someone has taken control away from them. But it’s not about harming you or–
Princess Kali: Right.
Dawn Serra: Right, exactly.
Princess Kali: It’s not to say that there aren’t people who have rape fantasies. That’s fully legitimate. Also, politically incorrect. But when done through consensual, appropriate avenues is a totally legit fantasy. But that the language isn’t always appropriate. That rape is about power and violence. Ravishment is about letting go of responsibility for sexual energy.
Dawn Serra: Yes. Oh, I love that.
Princess Kali: That’s what a lot of women and/or people who have mixed or perhaps negative feelings about their own sexual desires, then that’s an out. That’s a way to experience their sexuality without claiming the supposed shame that we’re supposed to feel about it – the bad shame, not the good shame.
Dawn Serra: I’m curious because we’re talking about humiliation and this erotic power of living out the things that are most socially taboo. I wonder, for people who are actively working against social constructs in our society, and they delight in being other and on the fringes, do you find that either humiliation play is not as interesting to them? Or, does it take on a different dynamic than for people who are a little bit more living within the traditional realm and use humiliation as a way to break out of that tradition that they live in?
Princess Kali: Well, like you said at the start of the interview, there are so many different paths into kink, even though there are common threads. So I’d say, no. Pretty much anybody can find a taboo to play with. I mean, one of the things I do, one-on-one coaching. I particularly work with women around sexual confidence, both on dominant, submissive, switch – any of that energy. I’ve met and worked with plenty of women who are feminist activists, who really are out there talking about and fighting against sexism and against misogyny, who then come back and want to be gang banged and have 12 men cum on their face.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Princess Kali: So even if you take that person who by traditional standards is maybe living in a more aware life – I mean, just for lack of a better word – then maybe your average citizen going through the world, anybody and everybody has taboos that can be fun to play with.
Dawn Serra: I love that. What’s interesting is, a couple of years ago, I remember somebody talking about how he had this fetish for playing in someone’s shame – but not the kind of shame that was name calling and very outward. But he wanted to find the shame that was deep inside of you, and just even saying the word makes you blush and want to turn away. He wanted to play in a space–
Princess Kali: A wish.
Dawn Serra: Right. I remember when he said that to me, my initial thought was this deep discomfort of just like, “Oh, God!” But then the more I thought about it, the more arousing it sounded, like, “When do you ever really give yourself permission to find that place that just makes you want to hide from the world because you’re so ashamed of it, and then let someone purposely play with that?”
Princess Kali: Well, exactly. And it’s super powerful. I mean, one of the things that I talk about often in my books – the book and in my classes – is the number one key concept of erotic humiliation, and it’s this: you cannot humiliate someone with something they don’t find humiliating.
Often, one of the biggest obstacles that I see in people is that they make assumptions – “I’m going to call you names. I’m going to call you worthless. I’m going to– Maybe you’ve just given me 12 orgasms, and then I’m going to call you a worthless worm.” Then I’m confused why that doesn’t maybe trigger the right things inside of you. So this person that you’re talking about had a much better insight into the idea that you really have to dig deeper. Because humiliation is so, so personal.
Princess Kali: I mean, kink and sex, obviously, is always personal. But one of the ways to think of it is that if you lined up ten people and you gave each of them a spanking, physically, they’re probably going to experience it in a similar way. Obviously, all of our bodies process pain differently – fibromyalgia. There’s a lot of things. But if you think of it this way: that you can spank somebody, and you can have a fairly good guess of how they will respond to that as long as you talk about it. Whereas if you come at humiliation and you try to line ten people up, and you try to humiliate ten people in the exact same way, you’re going to get very different responses because every single person is a different Rubik’s cube of needs, of intensity and style and type right. Somebody might be turned on by the distance – “Yes, you’re a worthless maggot, and you’re going to crawl around on the ground.” But somebody else might feel more connected to, “Look at you, little slut. I love it when you put yourself on display for me.” So those are both tapping into this idea of erotic humiliation and erotic inferiority, but they’re very different manifestations of it.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I love that. Yes! When you’re talking about those two different verbal statements that you were making, the first one about, “You’re a maggot,” and all this kind of stuff, it brings in me this anger of, “Who the fuck do you think you are?” But the second one of like, “Look at you putting yourself on display,” it totally felt different inside of me.
Princess Kali: Right. That’s what… So I call it your “kernel kink.” Like a little kernel, like a seed. What that is is your goal feeling. I find that kinksters focus so much on activity. I flog, therefore I dom. I crawl, therefore I submit. I honestly think that’s bullshit. There is no better word to describe it than bullshit. Because the fact of the matter is, that how it makes you feel is the most important thing, and then you find the activities that trigger those feelings, not the other way around.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my God. That’s one of the best things that’s ever been said on this podcast in two and a half years. I agree with that so much. I see so much bullshit domming going on because it’s like, “Well, I’m going to tell you to kneel and do this thing.” It’s like, “Well, but if that doesn’t trigger in me the feeling that I want to offer you myself in this way, then that’s not dominating me.” Right. And it’s going to be different with each person, too. So I love this goal feeling, and then what are the activities that help us achieve that versus, “Let’s do these activities,” and then just–
Princess Kali: And hope.
Dawn Serra: Hope, right.
Princess Kali: Then it creates this feeling. I mean, the thing is, most people are working with stereotypes as education. That if you watch the big conversation that’s been happening around is porn education. Personally, I think porn is entertainment that you can be inspired from. But for a lot of people, they’re looking at these myths around dominance and submission. And they’re taking those things as, “Oh, if I do that, then I’m dominant.” I think that we just– In order to have the most… I hate the word authentic. It’s so overplayed these days. But to have the most true experience for each of us, you do have to do a little bit of psychological work with yourself to see what it is you’re trying to get out of these experiences.
For some people, it really is just kinky, sexy fun, like, “Spank me. Fuck me. Let’s go to bed.” And that’s fantastic. But there are a lot of people who identify with kink more deeply. I found that those with psychological interests in kink, like psychological play, like humiliation, tend to have more complex needs. And that’s not putting either of those people down. It’s just saying that if you want to really have some mind-blowing experiences, use your mind.
Dawn Serra: I totally agree. I love that. Yeah. Instead of following what you see lots of other people doing and hoping it works for you, instead really exploring what are all of the opportunities and how do they make me feel. Then rolling around in the ones that feel really aligned with what it is that you want to create. I think one of the things that’s so delicious is, at this point in my life, I might be super busy and super stressed, so I don’t want to spend hours and hours and hours doing some deep psychological scene. But in a couple of years, I might totally want that.
Princess Kali: Totally.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Princess Kali: That’s exactly it. I mean, you got to find what works for you, obviously. You know what I mean? I am a big advocate of kinky people, whether you’re just getting started or whether you’ve been playing for a really long time, to spend at least a little bit of your kinky time, scaling back, and trying things more singularly.
One of the things that I talk about is don’t stop yourself on the kink buffet. So many people, when you discover the kink world or throughout your kink journey, there’s so many different ways to play and energies to play with, and toys to play with and ways to tie people up, that it’s easy to run down this buffet and stuff all the food in your face. Then it’s like, “Oh, my god. Buffets are disgusting because you now have split pea soup and chocolate mousse and lobster all in your mouth. And that’s gross.
Princess Kali: I think of kink in the same way. That one of the best ways… One of the best investments that you can do in your own sex life, I think, is to pick out one way to play. So play with verbal, and don’t incorporate other things. Or, play with a bit of bondage and approach it more as a science experiment. Because that way, you really get to test out what these feelings are. Then you can learn to layer them and become a pretty masterful kink artist, when you learn what all the different things flavors are and how they work together.
Dawn Serra: I love that advice. I absolutely love that advice. Yeah. Instead of jumping into bondage and dom/sub and sensation all at once, and then not knowing which part of it really worked for you and which part didn’t.
Princess Kali: Right.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, starting with one and trying it on and seeing what versions work for you. Then I love how you said layering. I think that, you’re right, it just leads to a much richer experience.
Princess Kali: Yeah. Again, there really is no one right way to do kink. But after 16 years of full immersion perversion that I have had as a career, I do feel confident in saying that when you invest that kind of thought and time, the payoff in your play is huge. It’s huge.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my gosh. I just like– Everything you’re saying, I’m just like, “Yes! Yes! Yes! Preach!”
Princess Kali: Well, I mean, I’m so passionate about kink. I think that it can be such an incredible tool, not only for sexy good times, but for personal growth and for self-awareness, and for all this other human stuff. I think it’s pretty great when people are able to use their sexuality as a way to improve their self-awareness and world awareness. You know?
Dawn Serra: Yeah, absolutely. That actually leads me to two different questions–
Princess Kali: And then go masturbate.
Dawn Serra: Right.
Princess Kali: Like, “Hey, self-awareness. Now, let’s masterbate”
Dawn Serra: Right. “Let’s go get off because that was hot.”
Princess Kali: “Let’s get off the focus. This feels fucking good.”
Dawn Serra: Exactly.
Princess Kali: Sorry to interrupt.
Dawn Serra: Oh, no. It’s OK. It’s OK.
Princess Kali: You said you have a couple of–
Dawn Serra: Well, everything that you just said made me think of two different questions that I have. The first is, you mentioned 16 years of this immersion and perversion. I’d love to know, based on all of your experience as a masterful kinkster, what has been one of your favorite humiliation scenes that you’ve ever done?
Princess Kali: Oh, my god. That’s really hard because I’ve done a lot, and they are all really entertaining. There’s the one where I turned him into a human hotdog. He was completely shaved, and I squirted mustard. I actually have a video of that one and told a story at the story event. Turned him into this human hotdog, and made him put relish and mustard behind his ear for a week. It’s really fun.
Then I was at this really great event in the Baltimore area called “A Dark Odyssey Summer Camp,” which I’ll be teaching at this year. My submissive, Wimpy, it was really muddy and wet and rainy outside. So I put him down in this big mud puddle in front of a door, so that people could step over this mud puddle by stepping on him and squishing his face in the mud up. That’s one of his favorite scenes to this day. So, yeah. Those are probably the top two that come to mind.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my gosh. How fun! One of the things I love about that is just the creativity involved.
Princess Kali: Yes. For me, kink– Just a little bit about my 16 years background is that I was a professional dominatrix for ten years and based in Boston, Massachusetts, but traveled quite a bit and was a prolific professional dominatrix. Also had a website, coachingbykali.com, which was a femme dom pornsite that I self-produced through that, and then also being a lifestyle kinkster. So I had quite a number of personal collared submissives that weren’t clients, but actual personal servants. So through all of those experiences, I have had the opportunity to play with a wide variety of people and interests and intensity levels and all of that stuff. Then also through the education I’ve done with teaching and talking with people and coaching and all of that kind of stuff that. I totally forgot what led me off on this tangent. You said something. What did you say?
Dawn Serra: The creativity.
Princess Kali: Oh, that’s right. The creativity. I have a theatre background, and for me, absolutely, the number one joy of all of this is the theatricality, the absurdity. I have an absurdity fetish. If you’ll notice the two examples I gave you are ridiculous – turning around into a hotdog and squishing a man’s face in the mud. Those are absurd.
For me, my kink is based on joy. If I’m not laughing, there’s something wrong with that. The kind of stretching that it requires of my creativity is something that– It will never stop. There will never be a moment where I think to myself, “Been there, done that,” for everything. There’s always something weird and awesome and on the fringe and creative that you can do in our pervert’s paradise.
Dawn Serra: That, to me, is what’s so exciting about giving yourself permission to explore your erotic edges and watching your erotic map constantly grow. Because I feel like so many people get really stuck in what sex is supposed to be, and then they feel resentful, or really disappointed 20 years into their sexual experiences.
I think one of the things that’s so beautiful about all the different ways that you can play with kink, especially in this really creative space, like you do, is there’s never a point where you run out of things to learn or try.
Princess Kali: Really, truly. I mean, I have been… My career is starting to move a little bit into the mainstream field. But I mean, I really have been entirely focused on kink for a really long time. And there is still stuff that I go, “Oh, my god. I’ve never thought of that.” That’s astounding to me that I could play so thoroughly in this space and still have things that inspire me and surprise me. That’s magical. It’s because even though kink is focused so much on activities – bondage and spanking and those kinds of things – really all of that stuff, the core aspect of it, whether it’s a physical way to play or psychological way to play, still the core aspect of it is happening in our mind. So the only limitations that kink have are the limitations that your mind puts on it.
Dawn Serra: And that is delicious.
Princess Kali: Totally.
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Princess Kali: So even when you think of something like bondage, if somebody says, “I like bondage,” that is a nearly useless statement. Because when I say bondage, I might be thinking head to toe saran wrap, a little tube out of your mouth, utter sensory deprivation. And when you say bondage, you might be thinking silk scarves around your wrists and a rose bud as a gag. You must hold this rose bud in your mouth. Language is not adequate to express the variety in our minds. So there really is this amazing process that we all go through of exploration when it comes to kink.
Dawn Serra: I want to circle back to your ten years as a professional dominatrix in just a minute. But before we do that, since we’re talking about kink and this endless variety, and just the unbelievable ways we can all experience and live our way into kink, I know you run kinkacademy.com—
Princess Kali: Yeah.
Dawn Serra: Which is something I’ve mentioned on the show a couple of times. Can you just tell everybody a little bit about it? Because it’s something that I’ve watched. I don’t know how many hours of videos on your site.
Princess Kali: Awesome. Thank you. I would love to share about Kink Academy. Kink Academy, we are coming up on our nine year anniversary. It is the original BDSM education video-based website. It currently has more than 130 educators and about 1,400 videos. I launched Kink Academy. We’re a small independent company. It is me and a few amazing freelancers that do everything for the website. I am exceptionally proud of Kink Academy because it really presents an incredibly diverse perspective on kink. It is not intended to be porn. We certainly have a lot of sexy stuff. But the goal of Kink Academy is to pull back the curtain, to pull back that entertainment aspect, and to really show people the mechanics of how stuff happens, so that you can then go and create these erotic, porn-type experiences on your own, but safely.
One of my favorite videos is Makael Newby teaching cocksucking and gagging and choking. She’s got this cock in her mouth. It’s not a voiceover, It literally is her going, “OK. If you’ll notice, as his cock goes deep in my throat–” She’s really breaking down the mechanics of choking on a cock. Personally, I think that that’s a pretty badass way to teach sex, and is a unique approach.
Dawn Serra: That is actually something that’s come up over and over and over again with other sex educators. Specifically, Nadine Thornhill and I had this really great conversation about kids and how they learn about sex, and how because we don’t actually have material that shows us what sex looks like and how to have it and all the different ways that we can experience it, then kids turn to porn to learn. And that’s the way all of us end up really learning about the true mechanics is porn and experience.
I agree with you. One of the things that’s so amazing about the videos on Kink Academy is you’re actually getting to see people in these acts talking about how they do it and what it feels like and what to look out for. You can see it on real bodies. I mean, there’s fat bodies and older bodies and people of color. I mean, it’s such this rich diverse space–
Princess Kali: Cisgender, trans, gender queer.
Dawn Serra: Yes.
Princess Kali: I mean, absolutely, one of the number one priorities for me throughout building Kink Academy has been diversity. Porn and some people that have approached edu-porn-ment – or whatever that word is – they do still tend to be pretty traditionally attractive people. [pretends to gag] Excuse me while I gag. Kink Academy shows real people in real environments. It is not super glossy. I traveled the country and would book a ton of educators to come through. It is real kink by real kinksters. I’m really proud of that.
I think that that is an important perspective to show the world, in terms of how kink happens and where it’s happening. It’s not just happening in dungeons by skinny, white girls and boys. Kink is happening across the world in such a hugely diverse way. Kink Academy strives to represent that. I really am exceptionally proud of what Kink Academy stands for and what it puts out into the world.
Dawn Serra: Just for people who are curious, it’s a monthly subscription. You can become a member, and then watch as many of the videos as you want to and have the subscription for as long as you’d like to, right?
Princess Kali: Yeah. I have done my absolute damnedest to keep it super accessible. I’m also very proud that we have paid all of the educators on the site – both paid for their time and have an ongoing profit sharing opportunity through the site.
So the fee for Kink Academy is 20 to 25 bucks a month depending on if you sign up for one month or multiple months. You get it a little cheaper if you sign up for multiple months. You have access to 1,400 videos which you can watch over and over. You can watch and then you can pause.
Princess Kali: I’m great at a lot of kinky things, but I suck at bondage. Let me tell you. I do not have, a lot of times, the patience, but Kink Academy videos have really helped me because rather than being even in a class where I’m forced to keep up with a roomful of people, if I’m watching a video, I can actually practice on the rope, on a pillow, pause the video, practice some more, watch a little bit more – that sort of thing. So it becomes this really incredible. Have you got a date Friday night at 9pm? Eight o’clock, pull up kink Academy, watch a couple of five or ten minute videos, pick up some inspiration or a new skill, and wham-bam, you can wow your date. I mean, it’s an incredible, accessible resource.
Dawn Serra: Oh, I totally agree. I hope everyone will go check it out because if there’s anything you want to learn– And not all of the videos are explicit either.
Princess Kali: Oh, no. There’s a lot of them that are breaking down the understanding of what’s going on.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. For people who aren’t sure that they want to see full nudity or full kink, there are Reid Mihalko, I think, is on there talking about rough sex and all of the clothes are on and all kinds of stuff.
Princess Kali: Yeah, definitely. There’s a lot of different levels. So again, since you are in control of your own experience at Kink Academy, if you don’t like a topic or an educator or how something is being talked about, click. You click away, and you watch something else.
Dawn Serra: Well, I’m curious because you’ve created this incredible site that has just well over a thousand videos. You’ve been doing this for 16 years, and then you worked as a professional dominatrix for ten. What drew you into the world of doing sex work and exploring this side of yourself? What was that start like for you?
Princess Kali: Sure. I also get that question, like, “How do you get into this?” I’ll be honest. I think it was a fairly direct path for me. I have been, since I was young, really interested in talking about stuff I’m not supposed to talk about, which my mother will confirm. If it was something that I wasn’t supposed to say, I totally wanted to say it.
The whole idea of gender dynamics has always been really interesting to me, and power and how power plays out. So when I was in college – I was about 20 – a friend of mine suggested that I become a stripper. I was working for a band promoter at the time. Somebody ran into my car, so I didn’t have a car so I couldn’t do that work anymore. A friend of mine was like, “You know what? When we go out and go dance and drinking, you dance kind of slutty. Maybe you should be a stripper.” I was like, “Holy shit! You’re a genius.”
Princess Kali: For me, stripping was kind of a bootcamp for professional domination. Because I did bachelor parties, and if you can control a roomful of drunk men, then one submissive is a breeze, to be honest. And I found stripping to be incredibly empowering. I know that that is not the experience for everyone, and that might surprise some people. But I found it to be, to walk into a room and to be supposedly vulnerable by being naked, and yet to be able to orchestrate how people behave around you was my first taste of turning that gender dynamic on its head.
Because one of the things– I mean, I was 20 years old, and have always been very flirty and exhibitionistic. I realized that men were going to be objectifying me no matter what, and that I would prefer to profit off of that than to simply feel shitty about it, which is what a lot of women go through. So I took control of that knowledge. That as a woman, I was going to be objectified and that if that was going to happen, it was going to be to my benefit, and not to my detriment. And so for me… When I was a stripper and men would misbehave, I’d make them bark like dogs or I’d stick them in the corner. And I didn’t know what that was. That was just me being me.
Princess Kali: So when I discovered the BDSM world through a foot fetish party, when I moved to Boston, I mean, it’s really the first time I walked into a foot fetish party, and I saw this incredible range of women being worshipped and adored and treated respectfully. It was like angels and rainbows and unicorns shitting glitter. I was like, “This is where I belong.” I really did jump in with both feet, and my life has never been the same sense. I wouldn’t change it for anything.
Dawn Serra: What do you think is the number one misconception that people have about either being a dominatrix or working with a dominatrix?
Princess Kali: That it’s about sex in the traditional way. I’m very open about what my career path has been. I’ve been retired for six years. I’m no longer a professional dominatrix. I still have a couple of personal submissives because I’m a kinky person.
But one of the things that comes up a lot is that people don’t understand that it’s not about genitals. Now, I’m not saying it’s not about sex because that’s ridiculous. Obviously, it’s about sex. It’s about sexual energy and those kinds of things. But when it comes to domination, the sex is happening in our minds, which then gets translated into these physical experiences like treating someone like a dog or smashing a pie in their face. Those were my traditional scenes. My scenes did not have anything to do with genitals. They were very psychologically-based, particularly because humiliation was my specialty as a pro.
Dawn Serra: OK. One of the things that I get asked a lot on the show, that specifically is around hiring a pro dom or a sex worker or a sacred intimate, comes from people who are in relationships where they’re not getting their sexual needs met – usually in a long term marriage. So they’re considering working with a professional, and they want to know if they need to tell their spouse. I tend to err on the side of, “You should be as ethical as possible and have a conversation about why you might need this, without also shaming people who just really feel like that’s not an option for themselves.” I’d love to know how you’ve navigated that gray space?
Princess Kali: Yeah. Well, a lot of the clients that I had were married. Most of them had made some attempt. As a pro, definitely clients skew 95% towards men. That’s just the fact of how the world works. A lot of these men who desired submission and who desired release from the pressures of masculinity in the world today have tried to speak to their wives, and a lot of times, the wives would–
Because, again, women are not taught how to deal with sexuality in general, let alone sexuality that is different than your average tits and ass, “Let’s go fuck missionary style,” sort of sexuality. A lot of these men had to have tried to talk to their wives. The wives often said, “I don’t Want to spank you. You’re not my kid. I married a man not a bitch boy.” And I think that that is an absolutely tragic thing. A lot of times comes from women simply not knowing how to claim their own sexual power, which is why I work with so many women on exactly that.
Princess Kali: So my feeling is that, absolutely, honesty is the best choice, typically in a relationship. I encourage everyone to try to have that conversation. But I understand if it doesn’t necessarily go well, and that that doesn’t mean that your needs disappear. Those are a lot of the clients that I would end up working with.
And I think of it like this: There are people who don’t believe in therapy. There are people that believe that therapy is a quackery. That it’s a waste of time. That it’s a waste of money. That you should just suck it up, get over it, talk to your buddies – whatever. So if you felt that you really needed therapy and your partner didn’t believe in therapy, what would you do then?
Princess Kali: Now BDSM is therapeutic, but it’s not therapy. Please don’t misunderstand. I’m not saying that BDSM is equal to therapy. But I’m saying that if you have a need that is a critical part of you existing in the world and being a happy, healthy person, I think that it’s important that you fulfill those needs in a way that is as ethical as possible.
I worked with a number of men who certainly struggled with guilt, but who were able to – for one hour a month or whatever it was – come and have these experiences, have the freedom from the role in their life, which is why they then come to a pro, and then can go back to their lives and actually be a better husband, a better father, a better person in the world.
Princess Kali: So I personally don’t think that that is a negative thing. But you have to really figure that’s one of the things about figuring it out. It’s one of the tragic aspects of people not talking about their sexuality before getting into these long-term, committed relationships.
Dawn Serra: Yeah. I love so much of what you said. And, yeah. I think what’s so important is each of us has to decide what we need, and then if we’re willing to face the consequences of what happens if someone finds out. You may decide, “If I get to do this for ten years, and it’s a critical part to me feeling happy and healthy. Then at some point, something gets discovered, and now we have to have some tough conversations,” that might be something you’re willing to do or you might want to have the conversations on the front end. But I like what you said about therapy. I think that’s a wonderful analogy.
Princess Kali: Yeah. I have seen the damage done to people that try to stifle and ignore and discard these desires, and it doesn’t work. It doesn’t work on a long-term basis. In fact, what it does is it tends to create a binge mentality, and then even more shame – you avoid, you avoid, you avoid, you avoid. You can’t help it. You go and you hire a dominatrix or whatever the case may be. Then there’s this horrible deep shame about it that is damaging on any number of ways. So you ignore it, you ignore it, you ignore it. And I’ve seen that happen. It hurts my heart when I see that because your sexual needs are not wrong inherently. The inability of some people to find freedom in their sexuality means that there is a big gap in their lives.
Dawn Serra: Yeah, I completely agree. I think it’s important for our listeners to know that it’s one thing to be fully aware of the things that you’re interested in or the things that you may want, and to consciously choose not to do those.
Princess Kali: Yes.
Dawn Serra: Versus trying to pretend this thing isn’t inside of you or fantasizing about it constantly, and feeling like you can’t talk about it. That’s, I think, when it starts to tear you apart.
Princess Kali: Yes, exactly. For example, sissification. So to bring it back specifically to humiliation. Sissification, which is traditionally when cisgendered men are dressed in women’s clothing as a humiliation technique. Now I have a…. For me, it’s important that that isn’t about denigrating women because some of what sissification is, it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to turn you into an inferior creature – a woman.” I can’t get behind that.
But when it comes to simply the taboo nature of gender expression, sissification is a perfect example of how men struggle with their sexual desires. Crossdresser or somebody who wants to be sissified – a man who wants to be sissified – might give in to his desire. This is the way that he’s thinking about it. He might give in to his desire. Go out and buy some satiny bras and panties. Dressing them when he’s alone. Then he struggles with the guilt of it. He throws all of it away. He tries to ignore it. Before too long, he’s got to go out and buy some more satin panties because the need is still there.
Princess Kali: This is the struggle that because toxic masculinity does not allow men freedom of a spectrum of sexual expression, then this guilt comes in. And that’s what I’m talking about. I’m not talking about avoiding stuff that’s damaging or non-consensual. Don’t do those things. But when it comes to something that’s, say, harmless as a man dressing and panties, that’s what I’m talking about. If that’s the kind of desire that you have, you are OK. You are not a bad person. You are not a bad man. You are not less of a man or any of those things. But those feelings and those assumptions can stop people from exploring their sexuality. That’s what I’m talking about is damaging and doesn’t work.
Dawn Serra: I’ve gotten so many emails from men who like signing it. Like, “You’re sissy sub or sissy rob,” or those kinds of things. I love that they feel safe expressing that part of themselves with me.
One of the things that I see consistently coming up in the questions is, “My wife doesn’t know what to do with this,” or, “She’s not interested.” It’s really interesting because I’ve found that in me, I am pretty naturally submissive with my sexual partners. But a couple of years ago, I actually had a cis male submissive for about six months, and it was fun to play in that space. But I constantly felt this, “Oh, shit. Now what do I do with this person?” He wants me to tell him to do these things, and I’m like, “What the fuck do I say?” ‘Cause I’m worried about saying the wrong thing or it not being right. Then I’m all up in my head. So I’d love…
Dawn Serra: For people who are listening who maybe are interested in trying this dynamic, but maybe the wife or the partner isn’t really sure how to step into her domness, do you have any suggestions for how you can tap into that part of yourself?
Princess Kali: Well, that’s exactly what I do a lot of coaching on, actually. Because what you just described is probably the most common obstacle that people have is that they’re horny, they’ve decided they want to be kinky, and then they just don’t know where to go from there. And that sense of, “Am I doing it right?” is… Oh, it’s so useless.
Dawn Serra: Yes. It totally is!
Princess Kali: It’s so useless, but it’s so common. Because the bottom line is this, if you are embracing your sexual confidence, you’re doing it right. That’s just it. When it comes to, “Are they going to enjoy everything that you do?” that is an unreasonable expectation of perfection that you have got to let go of ladies, men, and everybody and anyone on the gender spectrum.
Perfection is not what we’re after. You do not have to be perfect as a dominant. I think that is also one of the most useless myths around dominance is that it’s OK if you do something, and then later on, they tell you, “Eh. That wasn’t really for me.” That doesn’t undermine your dominance or your fabulousness or anything unless you let it.
Princess Kali: So I’d say that the way that you build confidence is by creating successful experiences. And the way that you create successful experiences is by taking the pressure off. This is where it comes back to my advice not to stuff yourself on the kink buffet. It’s a lot easier to feel successful when you’re not juggling three balls on fire and a chainsaw. If you are instead focused on a particular activity or a particular feeling or a particular way to connect, and then do that successfully and build from there, you will continue to build confidence, which is so attractive and is so sexy. Then the ideas will come.
And I look for inspiration everywhere. I’ll tell you what. Mr. Burns on The Simpsons is one of my favorite dominant role models. That man knows a good mindfuck. I’ll tell you why. Him and his little buddy – I can never think of his little buddy’s name – but his little assistant, that’s obviously his submissive. Look around and feel inspired by the world around you, and then incorporate that into your own expression of dominance, and just give it a go.
Princess Kali: I’ll tell you this, too. If your partner makes you feel shitty for not doing it right, that is the problem. Not you not doing it “right.” This is a team sport. Kink is a team sport, and you have to be on the same team together.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my god. I could not agree more with that. That needs to be a bumper sticker.
Princess Kali: I know.
Dawn Serra: Well, I love what you said to about look for inspiration everywhere. Because I’ve noticed that a lot of people who come to me– I tend to work with vanilla folks, and they come to me a lot talking about, “Well, our sex just isn’t very connected. It’s kind of boring.” When I ask, “Well, what are you using to learn and expand and get new ideas?” And they’re not. So I love this look for inspiration, watch videos, and read books. Watch shows and let it inspire you–
Princess Kali: And take notes. Just another one of my little quips is structure supports spontaneity. OK? That all people, whether it’s vanilla or kinky or whatever, seemed to think – or at least a lot of people – that sex should just happen magically. And that’s the only way that it’s happening correctly is that that movie scene of sweeping everything off the desk and fucking passionately on the table. OK, that can happen. But most of us are too goddamn busy, and who’s going to clean up all that shit from the desk?
So I thoroughly believe in creating support that allows for spontaneity. I’m a big Evernote user. But I used to have a little notebook that I would keep., If you’re kinky kink is in your mind at any given point in the day. If you see something that inspires you, jot it down. Because our brains are full of life stuff, and you may not remember. You may have this brilliant idea for a scene. But then Friday night date night comes along, and you’re like, “Oh, damn! I was going to do that thing. Now, I can’t remember. So let’s just watch CSI.” Is CSI still on television?
Dawn Serra: I’m not sure. But yes, exactly that.
Princess Kali: So take notes, and don’t be ashamed to– Oh! actually, I have a blog post coming up on getting submissives involved in brainstorming and sharing their fantasies and taking responsibility also for making play happen. Because a lot of dominants– Here I’m back on my soapbox again. A lot of dominants feel like it is only their responsibility to make play happen. And that is also bullshit. I call bullshit.
Submissives have– Again teamsport here, people. Submissives have a responsibility to share their interests, to talk about their desires. Now, if you have a power dynamic, you should do it within that dynamic. Maybe it means writing it down in a journal. Maybe it means requesting respectfully and groveling and begging for a certain kind of play. Ooh! How delicious can that be, right? But you are both… You should both be– This is one of the few shoulds that I get to say, and I feel confident in saying: You should both be trying to make fun stuff happen. It is not just one or the other’s responsibility.
Dawn Serra: Yes. One of the things that I love about that suggestion, that perspective is that, especially if you’re in a heterosexual dom-sub situation, empowering the sub, especially if she’s a cis woman, to articulate her needs and her fantasies. To me, that is such a beautiful gift to give a submissive – empowering them through that process of actually getting to ask for what they want, and then finding a way to play with that. I love that so much.
Princess Kali: Definitely. I totally agree. Women have or female socialized individuals have a tendency to not talk about their fantasies, whereas men or masculine-identified people tend to feel a bit more comfortable with that.
But something I found about submissives is that no matter where on the gender spectrum you are, submissives often feel restricted in their ability to share their fantasy. There’s this phrase called topping from the bottom. That is one of the biggest fears that I see in submissives. They say, “I don’t want to tell the dominant my fantasies because they might think I’m topping from the bottom. They might think I’m trying to control the scene, even though I’m a submissive.”
Princess Kali: But here’s where intention matters. Because when dominants can convince their submissive or even better when submissive can convince their own damn selves, that their fantasies are important. Then if they’re sharing their fantasies without demand, then that is not topping from the bottom. That is helping your dominant create scenes that are exciting for both of you.
Now, there’s a difference between a submissive saying, “I want you to spank me. If you don’t spank me right, I’m going to pout.” Or, it may be unconsciously that I’m going to share my fantasy with you, and then if you don’t do it, I’m going to be mad. That’s different. That’s kind of gross. But if you share your fantasy, and if you really verbalize, and if you have an environment where the dominant sees that as a benefit… And doms, please see this as a benefit. Stop working so damn hard, dominants. Allow your submissives to help you. They are so creative. I just had a fabulous– Somebody that I’m starting to dabble and play with, and we were tweeting some kind of playful things about chastity. They tweeted back something about, “Well, I don’t know if I can text you with my nose laying on the ground,” and I thought, “Oh! But you should try.” Right?
Dawn Serra: Yeah.
Princess Kali: If I didn’t allow the people I played with to have that kind of banter with me, think of how many of those amazing ideas I would miss out on. So share your fantasies with each other, and think of this as a team sport.
Dawn Serra: Oh, my gosh. I want that to be what everybody walks away from listening to this episode remembering is that kink is a team sport. I love that so much.
Well, I have so many other things I want to talk to you about and some really juicy listener questions. But we are our hour, if not, I think we’re a little over. What I’d love is, one, to have you back on the show soon, so we can have a part two. And two, if you would share with everybody how they can find you and follow along with you.
Princess Kali: Definitely. enoughtomakeyoublush.com is the book site. I have a blog where I elaborate on ideas that are in the book and some other fun stuff, like a Humiliation Truth or Dare Game. I’m finishing up a Humiliation Workbook to go along with the book. So enoughtomakeyoublush.com. My coaching to help, if you’re interested in coaching sessions, you can check out coachingbykali.com. Of course, kinkacademy.com. You can see plenty of videos of me and a ton of other educators, and learn about all kinds of fun stuff. Of course, you can find my book, “Enough to Make You Blush,” on Amazon, both in paperback and on Kindle. Just search either “enough to make you blush” or Princess Kali – KALI – on Amazon.
Dawn Serra: Ah, awesome.
Princess Kali: Thank you so much for having me on, Dawn.
Dawn Serra: You’re so welcome. This was so much fun. I’ll have all your links on dawnserra.com. Of course, everyone please go to Sex Gets Real and submit your questions, so that the next time Kali is on the show, we can field some of your super sexy, kinky question together. But, yeah. Thank you so much for being here with me today.
Princess Kali: Thanks, Dawn. Thanks for having me. I super look forward to next time.
Dawn Serra: Great. Well, thank you so much to everybody for listening. This is Dawn Serra with Sex Gets Real. Bye!