Sex Gets Real 146: Female genital mutilation by Mariya Karimjee

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Sometimes, you luck into an incredible opportunity. That happened to me when I heard Mariya Karimjee’s story on The Heart or This American Life. It’s about her experience with female genital mutilation and having part of her clitoris removed when she was a young girl.

I reached out to Mariya and invited her on the show to talk about being an FGM survivor, what it’s been like in her life since her story went global, and she also brings some voices of other survivors to share with us.

We talk about Muslim women, sex, changing relationships with our parents, patriarchy, and the importance of sex education.

It’s an important conversation that I hope you’ll enjoy. I know I did.

In this episode, Mariya and I talk about:

• What is FGM, or female genital mutilation? Mariya shares some of the differences in various practices and ways that vulvas are cut. Mariya’s FGM was the result of Dawoodi Bohra religious practices.
• Her journey in her relationship with her mother in being cut and how that relationship has changed as Mariya’s story has been shared around the world.
• How scandalous it is to talk about sex and sexual pleasure in Pakistan, even among women. Patriarchy is deeply embedded in how women view other women.
• Women doing this to other women, and how men in Mariya’s sect were largely removed from the genital mutilation practice. Though the claim is it’s done to curb women’s desire, Mariya started pushing back and challenging that point.
• Patriarchy and what it means within the context of women’s pleasure and child mutilation. It is child mutilation to take a 7 year old girl and cut parts of her genitals off. Patriarchy is deeply embedded in so many sexual beliefs around the world, including here in the U.S. Women’s pleasure is consistently seen as secondary or a nice-to-have.
• Mariya has been talking to other survivors who have been cut, and the importance of sharing stories from various cultures and voices, including those who have been cut and don’t feel like survivors.
• Can people who have been cut experience orgasm and sexual pleasure? What has Mariya’s pleasure journey been like?
• Muslim women and sex – we MUST stop assuming Muslim women are not having sex, don’t know anything about sex, and don’t enjoy sex.
• Is it better for a doctor to do an illegal cutting procedure than some local woman without medical training in a country where it is legal? Mariya and I dig in to that thought and chew on it.
• Dudes: stop thinking your penis will heal all the things or cure illness or pain. STOP STOP STOP.

Resources discussed in this episode

Mariya’s episode on The Heart podcast

Mariya’s story on This American Life

Additional voices on FGM

“I’ve asked your mother many times since this occurred, why an educated woman who resides in a country where this is illegal subjected her daughter to this practice? I never received a valid reason. Simply saying that “it’s in our religion” is not a good enough answer for me to accept that my daughter went through this.” Anonymous father

“I had started to understand the terrifying implications of the practice which differed from person to person and the physical and mental trauma some of my own sisters and close friends had to go through, and are still going through. I also came across many justifications for the practice, some from my family elders which went along the lines of, ‘This is done to curb a girl’s sexual desire so that she can put her mind to other things’, among many others.” Insia Jaliwala

“It may have been just a pinch of skin, but it was a part of me, a part of my femininity and a part of my womanhood.” Mariya Ali

“I also don’t know whether girls from other communities enjoy better sex or not. There have been many reports about this that I am unsure of. There is actually a lot of vagueness on this topic that I would like to have some clarification on.” Ummehani, from India

“One of my main insecurities about sex was that I felt like I was driving without the headlights on. Often times, I didn’t know where to go or how to guide my driver. I felt like a failure. To this day, I still have not experienced orgasm. While sex is enjoyable for me and I could describe what I can achieve as a “mini-climax”, I am bothered by the fact that I may never get to experience this wonderful part of life. While it’s no secret many women who have not been “circumcised” struggle with the same issues, a part of me will always wonder if that would have been true for me had this not happened. I will never know.” Anonymous

“For the record, I have never been mutilated. I am not traumatized, damaged, or broken. Yes, something unfortunate happened to me that I wish had not; but I do not want to be labeled a survivor. Personally, I feel the word is inappropriate to my situation because my life was never at risk. What I do want is to live in a world where what happened to me no longer happens to others. The reason I want this is because although I have come to forgive my loved ones, accept what has happened to me, and move past the trauma, not everyone who has undergone khatna has been so fortunate.” Anonymous, age 30

About Mariya Karimjee

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Good morning, everyone. Well, morning to me. I have been at the Sundance Film Festival all week, which is probably why I sound exhausted because I am. But I was there seeing all kinds of movies and hearing talks from directors and actors. It’s been phenomenal and inspiring, considering I’m going to erotic film school in a couple of months. So that was delightful.

Dawn Serra: I also am having to say goodbye to Alex. He’s been with me for three whole months. He has to go home in a couple of days, which is literally soul-crushing. I plan on crying for a few days and eating a lot of ice cream. But it was funny because he’s heading home on Thursday, and we have the afternoon before he has to be at the airport. My first thought was, “I should get us a hotel so that we can do something really sexy and special.” 

Of course, I think that seed was planted because I’ve spent so much time thinking about Hotels by Day who’s been sponsoring the episodes lately. Of course, they’re sponsoring this episode. Know that Valentine’s Day is right around the corner. If you want to surprise somebody or if you just need a little bit of a getaway from the hubbub of life – because that’s how I feel, too- listeners, you get 5% off your first stay with Hotels by Day. If you use the code, SGR5off for Sex Gets Real – SGR5off – then you can get 5% off a day stay hotel. You have options of 10am to 4pm or for a little more money, 10am to 6pm. You get a hotel in the city for a day to do something super sexy or get a spa treatment. I have my eye on something for Thursday to treat Alex before he heads home. 

Dawn Serra: This episode is, I think, a really fascinating episode. I’m so excited to share it with you. I had first heard about Mariya Karimjee on “This American Life.” She was featured on an episode that was allowing her to tell a part of her story about being the survivor of female genital mutilation. She had originally told her story on “The Heart” podcast. It was so moving and open and honest and full of real, conflicting emotions about how she learned that she was different, and her feelings about her relationship with her parents, and her relationship with her faith, and now the activism that she’s doing. 

I reached out to her because I really wanted to have her on the show to educate us about female genital mutilation or FGM. And it’s a wonderful talk. Mariya, as you’ll hear, is so entertaining and so fun and smart. We talk all about patriarchy and allowing survivors to define what their bodies feel like. Some of them don’t even want to be considered survivors. We talk about sex education in the US and in Pakistan. I think there’s going to be a lot in here for all of us to sit with and learn from. Let me tell you just a little bit about Mariya Karimjee, and then we will head into the interview. 

Dawn Serra: Mariya is a freelance writer based in Karachi, Pakistan. She’s currently working on a memoir about home and identity that’s going to be published by Spiegel & Grau.. I’ve got all of her links on dawnserra.com. Also, don’t forget we now have a Patreon. The show has been around for exactly three years. I’ve received so many questions from all of you over the years on how to support the show, and now you can. If you go to patreon.com/sgrpodcast, the lowest reward is $1, and then it moves up. 

I am publishing content over there that Patreon viewers can see. That’s not getting published anywhere else. I’ve got some really fun rewards that are going to allow you to vote on the questions that I answer and give you exclusive access to getting your questions answered ahead of everyone else. Please go over and check it out, patreon.com/sgrpodcast. I’m always saying pay for your porn, so maybe it’s OK for me to get paid for the show. Anyway, thank you so much. Here is my interview with Mariya Karimjee on FGM.

Dawn Serra: I am so excited to welcome you to the show, Mariya. How are you?

Mariya Karimjee: Good. How are you?

Dawn Serra: I’m wonderful. I know we’ve been discussing and planning this chat for a couple of weeks. Of course, what brought me to you, like so many others, was your incredible story that you shared on “The Heart” podcast, and also on “This American Life,” about your experience with female genital mutilation. So I would just love to start with the basics. My assumption is most of the listeners probably have some basic understanding of what FGM is. But I would love it if you could share just some basics about what it is and any little facts that you know. Because I know you’re pretty involved with activism.

Mariya Karimjee: Female genital mutilation or female genital cutting is exactly what it sounds like. It’s any cut to the female genital area. The World Health Organization defines it as such. They have three different kinds. It goes from a small cut to the hood, to an entire removal to the clitoris, to what’s referred to as infibulation, which is where they actually sew the vagina shut. It does vary in terms of severity and practice from region to region. I am a member of the Dawoodi Bohra sect. It’s a small Shia minority sect with roots in India, actually. There’s probably close to a million of us in the world. We have a huge diaspora community. There’s Dawoodi Bohra in Australia, in Pakistan, in the United States, in the UK, in East Africa. 

As far as I know, they’ve been practicing FGM. They do practice one of the least severe forms of FGM. But there’s no real medical training that goes on here. There’s no real conversation. People don’t really know what’s right or how much. Every woman’s vagina does look different. Most of us are cut when we’re quite little. Our parts are also quite little. So there’s a huge range of experiences and “problems” not problems that come with cutting within the community itself.

Dawn Serra: One of the things that touched me most about your story was how there was this shift for you when you really started understanding what had been done to you. We’re trying to really understand what FGM was. There was this anger that came up for you towards your mother around allowing this to happen to you. Then after having some conversations and realizing later that your mom really didn’t want this for you, but ended up ultimately not really having a choice in doing that. So that change in the relationship and really realizing where your mom had been in her own experiences, both with her body and in dealing with her daughter, which was you. I just found that so touching and beautiful. 

I’d love to know, at this point, now that you’ve been globalized as someone with this story that’s been shared over and over and over again, how has that transformed your relationship with your mother around this particular topic in your bodies?

Mariya Karimjee: You know, it’s really interesting. My mother was recently at a wedding in Pakistan. Weddings in Pakistan are very Bollywood style. They go on for days. There’s tons of people. You get to see people that maybe you know of or who know of you that are emboldened to come speak to you. My mother was talking to someone. She’s like, “Oh, you have kids. What do they do?” My mother offhandedly mentioned that her daughter was a writer and said, “Oh, what name does she write under?” My mother said my name and the woman said, “Oh, your daughter did that podcast.” Initially, my mother got really hesitant. She was like, “Oh, man. I just put my foot in it. I’m going to get yelled at from a member of the Bohra community.” This lady starts motioning her husband over to her, and her husband comes over. She’s like, “This woman’s daughter is the one who did the podcast.” Then both of them started congratulating my mother on how proud they were that she had been brave enough to let me speak. 

Then I saw my mother after two months, for the first time today, actually. This is the first story she told me at three o’clock in the morning, when she came to pick me up from the airport. It’s so funny because I feel like I forgave her. She didn’t necessarily come into forgiving herself. But so much of the larger world has absolved her of what she considers her sin. So many of the interactions that she has now with so many strangers are them telling her how amazing and brave and strong that she is. I think that that has made it easier for her to talk to younger women about not getting this done, to talk to our own family member. That, I think, her own private activism has changed our relationship a little bit. 

Mariya Karimjee: In the beginning, I was just very nervous that she wouldn’t forgive me for putting her out there. At the same time, I do talk about my mother and her sex life on the “This American Life” podcast and on “The Heart” podcast. I talked about how maybe she didn’t have the greatest, most positive sex life. Weirdly, this is what her friends are the most upset with me for. They think that talking about my mother did is not that bad, but revealing her sex life for the larger public is a terrible, terrible thing. My mom doesn’t feel that way. She gets the reason that I had to put that all out there. But it’s so funny to me that so many of the women in her generation are so scandalized by the fact that I talk about my mother as being a sexual being. 

Dawn Serra: I find that fascinating. I also love that your mother just gets it and is OK with that. I think that’s interesting, too. Because I’ve also read some of your pieces around how because Pakistan is so still very patriarchal, and sex education is pretty much absent from schools, that it’s really largely taboo still to have any conversations about the act of having sex. Yeah, I think that’s so interesting that there’s this acceptance of talking about FGM and these rituals, but then to actually talk about sex is a thing that someone is having out loud, that would cause this scandal. I find that really interesting.

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah. But it goes along the same vein of, women are not allowed to breastfeed in public or people are really uncomfortable with that. Recently, I was at a restaurant with a bunch of people, and I had to go use the restroom. It was winter, so I didn’t have a purse. I didn’t want to take my coat into the bathroom, so I just pulled out a tampon and I went into the bathroom just holding the tampon. One of the girls that I was at dinner with was seriously uncomfortable. She said, “Why did you have to do that?” I said, “Hold my tampon out in public? This is the thing that bothers you?” I went to an all women’s college. That threw me a little bit. I thought, “Wow. You’re so uncomfortable with your own body and the natural thing that it does.” So, yeah. I think that patriarchy is like deeply, deeply embedded in how women view other women. 

Dawn Serra: Absolutely. Yeah. I’d love to dig into that a little bit more. I know that FGM has lots of different roots and is based in many different rituals for many different communities around the world. Just based on your experience and your sect… Is it called the Bohra?

Mariya Karimjee: The Dawoodi Bohra. 

Dawn Serra: The Dawoodi Bohra. What are the reasons that they subscribe to FGM? Why does it continue? Or, do you feel like it’s shifting, and that fewer people are engaging in the practice now?

Mariya Karimjee: I mean, I come from such a privileged background, in that I have a college degree. My father has a college degree. Most of the people that I interact with within the sect are well-educated, are going for careers like lawyers and accountants, etc. So I think the level of conversation that I’m able to have with them about FGM comes from this very progressive mindset. Which also is, at the same time, I think that it gives me an unrealistic idea of how progressive everyone else is. I don’t know how much the larger community is thinking about this in the same way that we are. But for the people that I’ve been interacting with, they do seem a little more hesitant to do the procedure. 

What I have found so interesting is that until I and other activists started speaking about this within the faith openly, men were almost entirely removed from the process. It’s like women we’re doing this to other women. Women were doing the heavy lifting of justifying it to their daughters or their daughter-in-laws or even their granddaughter. They would say, “This is necessary. It’s part of our religion.” That in and of itself was used as one of the larger justification. It is part of our religion that you can’t question something just because it was part of our faith. 

Mariya Karimjee: Then the second part was, “Why is it part of our religion?” Then they would counter that with, “Because it’s used to curb the sexual desires of women.” So many women that I’ve spoken to have said that they have heard this as the justification. It begs the question, “Do you believe that women’s sexual desire is so out of control that you need to cut a part of their body off?” Because that’s really something that you believe. I don’t know if 16 year old girls are able to ask that question of their mothers or their grandmothers. I don’t know if people are thinking that hard about why it is that women want to curb other women’s sexual desires? What is it about a woman being in charge of her sexuality and her own pleasure that’s so threatening to so many people? 

I think that is one of the the effects of patriarchy is that our fundamental belief system is that women are not entitled to pleasure during sex. That’s something that so many women all over the world, whether or not they’ve been cut or not, are taught to believe. That a man’s pleasure comes first. That their pleasure is secondary. That acting solely on sexual desire is bad, and so on and so forth. That they don’t think twice about the fact that they’re taking a seven year old girl. I mean, it’s child mutilation. Having them be cut in order to prevent them being in charge of their own sexuality. So, yeah. I would say it’s patriarchy. But it’s an insidious patriarchy that is generations deep and something that I’m not sure that many women in my sect have the language really to delve into.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Something that really stood out to me in “This American Life” episode was that you were talking to your friend, Sameena. She mentioned that she masturbated. The two of you were talking about sexual pleasure and sexual experience. One of the things that, in listening to it, strikes me is I can see upholding a ritual because you feel like it’s meaningful. But when that challenge is to curb your sexual desire, if the person saying that has experienced sexual desire or sexual pleasure, there seems to be some type of disconnect happening there.

Mariya Karimjee: Or, maybe they think that’s the most sexual desire that they’re entitled to. If sex is not awful and painful for you and you were cut, then you’re not going to think twice about what’s happening to your daughter because your experience is that you’re still getting an adequate amount of pleasure from sex.

Dawn Serra: I know one of the things that we talked about as we were preparing for this was that you really don’t want to be the lone voice of FGM. That your story has become very popular and shared so many times over, which is such a wonderful, beautiful thing, partially because you’re just such a gifted storyteller. You are also so brave in sharing your story. But there are so many other experiences and feelings around being a survivor and relating to your body. I’d love to know, how are you moving through the world now that people are turning to you as an expert and requesting your voice over and over again?

Mariya Karimjee: One of the things that I have started doing almost shockingly recently is talking to other women who were cut and asking them how they feel about it, what their stories are. I spoke to a bunch of girls who are three or four years younger than me who were all born in the United States, and we’re all cut by doctors in the United States. All of them, for the most part, were masturbating and able to orgasm or believe that they were orgasming, with this lingering question in the back of their mind, that was something along the lines of, “Is this a real orgasm? Does it get better than this?” 

Then one of them actually posed the question that she doesn’t actually believe that she was cut. Because she went to the doctor, and the doctor didn’t cut her. She is still, you know, intact. But then she still remembers going to the doctor and all of that, but doesn’t actually remember being cut, which is a wonder if she was caught. 

Mariya Karimjee: All of these stories, I think, they’re filling in a lot of blanks for me. I’ve been working with an organization called Sayo. They’re trying to amplify the voices of FGM survivors from Asia. So much of the global focus on FGM ends up being as an African problem. It’s trying to counter that narrative by including the voices of women from the Dawoodi Bohra sect, but also from Malaysia and Thailand and Indonesia or where cutting does happen, and diversifying the narrative. Sometimes they just go– They have a blog. It’s a wonderful little series. Sometimes they go on their blog and look at the stories. 

One of the more difficult pieces for me to read was actually from a woman who was cut, and she refuses to say that she was mutilated. She says that she’s not traumatized or damaged or broken. She never felt like her life was at risk. She doesn’t want to be labeled as a survivor. But at the same time, she realizes that not everyone who has been cut has the same privileges as her. And she still believes that it’s wrong. 

Mariya Karimjee: I think that’s really, really interesting because I personally can’t imagine being cut and not feeling mutilated. Because that’s my experience. It’s also important to know that there’s women out there who’ve been cut who are living their lives, who don’t feel like it impacts them on a daily level, who still believe that it’s wrong. There’s women out there who were able to orgasm who believe that their bodies were violated. I think remembering that, for me, is really, really important just because I still carry around so much trauma that I forget that not everyone has the same experience as me. So therefore maybe it doesn’t operate from the same place of rage or anger that I do.

Dawn Serra: I know that you have found a couple of quotes from other survivors. I was wondering if you might want to share a couple of them now.

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah. This is from an anonymous writer, and she says that, “One of my main insecurities about sex was that I felt like I was driving without headlights on. Oftentimes, I didn’t know where to go or how to guide my driver. I felt like a failure. To this day, I still have not experienced orgasm. While sex is enjoyable for me, and I could describe what I can achieve as a mini climax, I’m bothered by the fact that I may never get to experience this wonderful part of life.” I found that very affecting. I mean, I have never had an orgasm, but I can’t imagine having something close to an orgasm and wondering if it’s real. 

Then Maria Ali, who’s a writer based out of London, I think sums it up so beautifully. She says, “It may have been just a pinch of skin, but it was a part of me, a part of my femininity, and a part of my womanhood.”

Dawn Serra: Wow.

Mariya Karimjee: Then the last quote, I guess, that I wanted to share is from an anonymous father, whose daughter was cut. He says, “I’ve asked your mother many times since this occurred, why an educated woman, who resides in a country where this is illegal subjected her daughter to this practice. I never received a valid reason. Simply saying that it’s in our religion is not a good enough answer for me to accept that my daughter went through this.”

Dawn Serra: Those are so powerful. I have chills. It’s fascinating to me, as a sex educator, I’ve had hundreds or thousands of questions from listeners over the years. One of the universal truths that just keeps coming up over and over and over again for the women who write into me or the folks who have vulvas – since not all of them are women – is this shame around how their vulvas look. It’s shame around not being able to orgasm. It’s shame around not really knowing what they want. I don’t know. It’s fascinating to me that there seems to be this systemic shame and fear of our bodies and misinformation. Then to add on to that, someone taking something from your body that you did not choose for yourself. 

I know that like intersex individuals often feel this when they’re, as a youngster, forced to have certain types of surgeries so that they conform to how their bodies are “supposed to look.” But to not be given the choice in how your body is treated and what happens to it is just so heartbreaking. 

Dawn Serra: Yet, to hear also, stories of women and survivors who are finding their way to pleasure and finding their way to accepting their body, and not even necessarily feeling traumatized by what they’ve been through, and saying, “No. This is my body and it works for me. I don’t want this to happen to others, but for me, I’m moving through life happy.” Just the diversity of the stories, I think, it’s wonderful that you’re sharing these so that we can see just the rich landscape of it all.

Mariya Karimjee: I was recently at an anti-FGM summit, and one of the speakers on a panel was a doctor in Arizona. She offhandedly mentioned that she has patients that come in who are defibulated, so the sewing up is reversed. They have a really hard time because they don’t think that their vagina looks pretty anymore. I had never thought about it that way before. I’d never thought that maybe this is so normalized that you would feel like you were weird for getting this process reversed. That you would hate how you look down there. 

There’s also something poetic about it. I don’t know if I’ve ever spent that much time looking at my parts. I happen to be a little bit scared of them still. And this idea that there’s women who have been cut who feel such kinship with their vaginas and their vulva, that they’re upset when they have to get it reversed because they want less pain during sex or because they realize it’s going to be more difficult when they give birth, etc. They have a hard time with that. I thought, “This is a different perspective. I’ve only been coming at this from a very, very specific angle.”

Dawn Serra: I wonder what all of the folks who are listening to this, their assumptions and beliefs are around FGM. Because I know that for years, the only story that I had ever heard or seen in the news was coming out of Africa. It was young girls who were being sewn completely closed. It was a very specific story that made me assume that there was just no opportunity whatsoever for pleasure or enjoying your body if you had been cut. The first time that that narrative started shifting for me was when I read the Anne Rice erotica trilogy about Sleeping Beauty. Have you, by chance, read those books or heard people mention them to you?

Mariya Karimjee: No.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s pretty hardcore BDSM trilogy that’s literally all sex. It’s an erotica trilogy. But in the third book, the main character is taken to someplace that I believe is in Egypt or the Middle East. She encounters women who don’t have clitorises. Her assumption is that they can’t enjoy sex, and they actually show her otherwise. There’s this really beautiful sex scene between the main character and this woman who has been cut and doesn’t have a clitoris and still has this fantastic sexual pleasure, but she keeps it a secret from the man in her life. I remember just feeling how wonderful. I felt so much surprised that that could be an option for people. So hearing that people are sharing stories about small orgasms, mini orgasms, curious about their orgasms, that, I think, just adds so much richness. 

I wonder, part of your story that you shared was going to a doctor and wanting to find out more about, “Would you be able to have sex without pain?” You also shared a story about your first sexual intercourse experience and what that was like for you. Since your story has been shared, has your experience of sexual pleasure and your body changed at all? Or, have you had new experiences or thoughts about it?

Mariya Karimjee: I’m not the first person to say this probably,  but I do believe that it’s almost a more psychological trauma for me at this point. Just because my first experience – my first and only experience – at sex went so badly that now I’m almost too terrified to try it again. I just get way too much in my head. I can’t really get out of it. Currently, I’m  living in Pakistan, so my opportunities for talking to a therapist or a sex therapist or whatever are quite limited. So, yeah. I do wonder how much of it is physical and how much of it is psychological? Refinery29, I believe, if I’m not mistaken, did this great infographic a couple of months back, it was phenomenal, about different ways to masturbate. A large number of my well-meaning friends sent it to me. I didn’t try it, but at the same time, I was like, “Oh, OK. This feels good. I would enjoy this if someone else was doing it.” But it didn’t necessarily get better than that. 

One of my New Year’s resolutions last year was to teach myself how to have an orgasm. I don’t really know when I just stopped doing that. It might have been pretty early in the year, I would say. I feel like maybe that should get back on my list for this year – try and learn how to have an orgasm. I just completely forgot about it, to be quite honest, until right this moment.

Dawn Serra: You’re like, “I’m putting masturbation on my to-do list.”

Mariya Karimjee: Exactly.

Dawn Serra: One of the things that I encounter over and over and over again on the show is people who are struggling to communicate about their body or shame that they have about their body, talking to partners or doctors about their experiences and what they need. I know that you’ve had some experience talking to doctors and about your body, even having them vulnerably say, “I’ve really never encountered this before. I’m going to have to do a little bit of research.” What have you learned about communicating about your body and your experience with people when you’re in those intimate one on one settings?

Mariya Karimjee: That I have to be patient, I think I would say. Doctors are… I don’t know. I would say doctors believe, I think, a lot of the time, that they are gods or that they’re perfect. They know everything, and they go into a room. I don’t know if they love being questioned or love it when patients have a perspective that’s not like their own. I think that being patient has been something that I’m working on with doctors.

Yeah. I just remember speaking to an OB-GYN recently, who tried to tell me– I mean, she didn’t really try. She just straight up told me that she had seen women from Somalia who are far worse off than me, so I shouldn’t worry about it. I really do believe that she thought that she was doing me a favor by telling me this. I almost wanted to punch her in the face. I just kept telling myself that she really believed that she was being helpful, that she didn’t necessarily know how condescending and alienating what she was saying was.

Dawn Serra: Well, on that topic–

Mariya Karimjee: I think that doctors, in general, could get a whole lot more sensitivity training. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. Not only doctors, but I’m sure all of us. I mean, I think that all of us need more practice, whether it’s fatphobia or ableism or any of the oppressivisms that we encounter, this kind of othering that can happen so easily. I know that I’ve probably done it a thousand times already during this talk. But I would love to know, just based on your experiences, and also your conversation with other survivors, how can we, as a society and a culture, better support survivors of FGM?

Mariya Karimjee: I think that allowing us to have our own ideas about whether we’re traumatized or whether we even consider ourselves survivors or whether we still believe that we’re victims. How we define our own experiences is really, really important. I think that there is a larger push in the world to pigeonhole everything into a nice, little, easy narrative of oppressed Muslim women or oppressed African women, and then rising up against the tides or whatever. I don’t know if that experience is true of everyone. 

I’ve also found for my sect, specifically, what’s so interesting is that there’s a lot of people who believe that FGM is wrong. But we don’t believe that the entire sect, as a whole, is flawed or bad. That’s a little bit how I feel. I’m not able to separate this awful thing that they have done to me from every other thing that they’ve ever done. Other people are able to separate that out. And I find that I sometimes alienate people who believe that FGM is bad because I’m so against the sect. That I don’t allow them to engage in conversations about how much they hate that they were cut, while still wanting to remain a part of the sect. Does that make sense? 

Mariya Karimjee: I think that that’s also really important is just pausing to– For me, that’s really hard because my experience is so integral to how I now see myself. It’s hard for me to make room for people who don’t feel oppressed, who don’t believe their lives were stolen from them, who don’t think that it was that big of a deal. So, yeah. I think that’s one of the biggest things is to allow the person who’s been cut, allow the person who defines herself as a survivor to get to define herself.

Dawn Serra: There was a study out of Egypt that showed with increased education, rates of FGM dropped pretty significantly. I’m wondering, where can we start as a culture to get better education or to change the dialogue that’s happening so that we can really get rid of FGM? I mean, where do these conversations have to start? And how can we make an impact?

Mariya Karimjee: Well, for starters, I think that there’s an overarching narrative from the Western world about the Muslim world and women and sex. I think that all of us are supposed to be sexually oppressed, period, the end. We’re not necessarily liberated in the same way that Western women are supposed to be. That kind of narrative permeates a Western understanding of women in the Muslim world. I think that, for starters, is already problematic. Maybe Muslim women know a thing or two about sex. Maybe allow that. Maybe they can wear a job and orgasm. Maybe those two things can be true at the same time.

I don’t believe that a lot of people believe that. When I ask them these kinds of questions, they look at me like I’m an alien from a different planet. I just know those two things. They can be religious. They can read the Quran. They can pray five times a day. And they can have insane, dirty, filthy sex. They can do it. So I think just letting that narrative die out. That women are oppressed just because of the way that the Western world has defined oppression is a good place to start. 

Mariya Karimjee: The second one is just investing in supporting organizations that do family planning and sex education work in developing countries. That’s a good start. Pathfinder is a great example of that. Find countries where that’s not true. There’s a big sister movement in Kenya where women are helping other younger women. It’s an entire anti-FGM movement that uses the Big Sister Network. It’s phenomenal. There’s the Daughters of Eve project. All these people are doing grassroots training, grassroots conversations. Just focusing at their methods and what they’ve learned as opposed to looking at it from that lens of the Western world view is a good start.

Dawn Serra: I see that danger so often of applying Western sexual expectations to other cultures around the world, and then passing judgments on them. I also see that a lot within sex education communities, even here in the states of feeling like there’s only one way to be empowered around your sexuality. Or, there’s the only way to be a truly liberated woman is to have had an orgasm. But 30% of women in the states haven’t even had an orgasm. How can we, who are doing this work and talking about sex openly, and offering education and offering a different narrative leave space for different bodies and different shapes, and different experiences, and different religions, and different cultures, so that it’s a dialogue rather than a prescription of how to be sexually. I love that invitation around, “Maybe you can be in a hijab, and also really be having amazing sex that would blow a lot of people’s minds.”

Mariya Karimjee: I mean, you would be surprised at the amount of time I say this to people. As soon as I say it, the thought occurs to them for the first time! You can just see it written on their face. I’m always like, “I just don’t understand.” I told someone. I was like, “I’m pretty sure you wear a hijab, and also maybe have had sex before you got married.” I think that that could happen. You could be Christian and have sex before you get married, and still believe in Jesus. I think that could still happen. Then they were like, “Oh. But then maybe they’re wearing the hijab because their family wants them to.” I was like, “No, no. I think that they can still wear their hijab because they think that’s what they’re supposed to do, but also have sex before marriage.” I don’t know. That’s the kind of danger of thinking is that there’s only one right way to be liberated. There’s only one right way to be having sex.

Dawn Serra: Well, to me, something else that comes through in that narrative is not only the assumption that Muslim women or women who cover aren’t sexually active, don’t have sexual desire, and/or are having terrible sex. The assumption is also, to me, if they’re partnered with Muslim men, that the Muslim men have zero interest in their partner’s pleasure, and they have zero interest in being good lovers. So that, to me, is also really reductionist of just the painting of this entire culture and the way that they must be moving through the world. But we need to leave more space than that. That there can be these amazing sexual encounters happening within all these different types of relationships. For as many selfish lovers there are, there’s probably as many giving lovers. We need to be opening that dialogue up.

Mariya Karimjee: Right. And that exists in the Western world. You can have an extremely tender, extremely loving husband who just doesn’t do it for you sexually. That can be true. Maybe he’s just not interested in your sexual pleasure. But he washes the dishes and takes care of the kids. That’s so a thing. It could be true. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. It’s such a– Yeah. I want more opportunities for all of our voices to be heard, especially voices for people who usually get spoken for. I think we see that for Muslim women. We see that for sex workers. We see that for survivors of all types, where well-meaning people step in and try and control the narrative, instead of just allowing the diversity of voices to exist, even if they’re contradictory or even if they’re things you don’t want to hear. And things that… 

I know that a lot of people who do work around sex worker advocating are afraid of letting sex workers say, “Actually, it super sucked, and it was abusive.” They are afraid those narratives damage the work that’s being done. So they try to silence them. Allowing for people who have been through FGM to say they don’t feel like they’re survivors because they’ve never been traumatized, and allowing that to be a truth.

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah. Or, also, at the same time, women who have been cut who don’t feel like they have gotten to the part where they have survived anything. That they’re still living through their trauma. Don’t force them to come up with a nice, little, fun word to define themselves. Let them just be women who are caught for a little longer before they’re victims or survivors.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Something you said earlier that really shocked me – Well, I don’t know if shock is the right word, but it just made me like, “What?” – is I know that… Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe that FGM is legal in Pakistan. Is that true? 

Mariya Karimjee: It’s not illegal.

Dawn Serra: It’s not illegal. OK. So it’s just this middle area. But to hear that you’ve talked to people who were cut in the United States, is this happening inside of communities by people who are leaders of the community? Or, is this being done by licensed doctors? That shocked me a little bit.

Mariya Karimjee: My understanding is that it was done by licensed doctors. Which, I don’t know, if you’re going to force your daughter to be cut, would I rather you go to someone who understands anatomy? Or, would I rather it be putting your daughter on a plane and sending her back to Pakistan or India, and finding the lady who cuts and so on and so forth? Does that make sense? I’m not advocating one over the other, but I kind of am. 

When I did those interviews– I’m sorry, I’m losing my words at my excitement. But when I did those interviews with those girls, what was so striking to me is that one of them was just like, “I just think I wasn’t cut. I think the doctor just saved me.” I just wonder. I’m like, “Maybe you’re telling the truth.” That is something that… What if you’re a doctor, and you look at a seven year old girl, and you’re thinking, “Oh, my gosh. I would do so much damage from the scalpel because of what is actually showing up here. Because of everything being tiny or her vulva being this way or hood being so small,” and then just opting not to do it, as opposed to feeling pressured to do it because they’re not a licensed medical professional. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I agree with you that, if this procedure is going to be done, let it be done in a sterile environment by someone who has training and anatomy and how to use the tools. That’s the safer alternative to being in somebody’s living room, and having it done on their floor. But also this interesting story of, “Yeah, maybe there are doctors out there who are saying they’re doing the thing, but actually not.” Then what does that mean to the little girl, and also to the family? Will they ever find out? Will that ever become known? What kind of a dynamic does that create? That’s really fascinating to me. 

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah.

Dawn Serra: Wow. One of the things that I’ve found amusing about having a podcast is that, of course, people can Google me. So much of the podcast over the years has been me talking about my own sexual experiences and sexual failures, and all the ways that I’ve done all of these bizarre, wonderful things. I know that you have talked about how, at this point in your life, anybody can Google you and find out your whole story. Has dating been different for you since your story came out? Have you dated at all? Or, have you just been so busy that hasn’t been something that you’ve had time for? What’s that been like navigating that space?

Mariya Karimjee: It’s actually really interesting because, yes, people can Google you, and they will. You’re on Tinder, and you say your first name is Mariya, and you’re a writer in Pakistan, 99% of men are going to Google “Mariya Pakistan writer,” and then they’re going to get to my story. It will happen. So even if they don’t have my last name, I have, apparently, won the internet with my name.

Dawn Serra: Yes.

Mariya Karimjee: Then you get two types of men: One who’s totally freaked out and wants you to know they’re not a bad person, but think that your baggage is way too much for them to handle, baggage that you didn’t tell them about that they just got by themselves. Then you get the guy who thinks that his magic penis will fix you and all of your sexual trauma. 

Dawn Serra: No! 

Mariya Karimjee: Honestly, from online dating, I just have not met someone who doesn’t fall into one of those two categories. But both of those people… I wrote that piece. I had full control over what I put out there. I’m talking to you, I still have full control over what I’m saying. This idea that you know all of me just because you read one thing I put out on the internet is a little fascinating to me. You don’t really know me. You don’t know about my relationship with my father. You don’t know about my brother. You don’t know really anything about what turns me on. There’s so much that makes me up that you don’t know because as a writer, I made editorial decisions about what to include and what not to include. You just made a decision about my baggage and my trauma without really even involving me in that discussion. So, yeah. It’s a little bit fascinating. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Online dating is a masochistic act of weeding through a lot of disappointment to hopefully find one of those little kernels every once in a while. But the magic penis that’ll fix it is the worst.

Mariya Karimjee: I mean, many men have literally been great. They’ve been like, “Oh, I’m a civil rights lawyer,” and just had awesome conversations with. Then somewhere in there, they’ll be like, “But you haven’t had sex with me.” I want to punch them in the face. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh. You really believe this. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. It’s like a guy approaching a lesbian. “Well, but you haven’t had sex with me yet?” 

Mariya Karimjee: Oh, yeah. I’m sure that happens.

Dawn Serra: Oh, god. How disappointing? Well, I’m glad you brought up your brother because I know one of the things that you mentioned in your story was that when he found out about what had happened to you, it stimulated some anger in him and some activism. I’d love to hear a little more about that.

Mariya Karimjee: Oh, yeah. My brother is awesome. He’s the best little human. He takes a while to metabolize information, as how I would put that. For the first couple of years after he learned about FGM, and that had happened to women he cared about, he really just wanted to have the conversations from within the community. He is a man of faith is how I would put it. He believes deeply and strongly in God. At that point, he saw a lot of benefits to the community aspect of our religion. He wasn’t necessarily against organized religion. He believed that if he had enough rational conversations with clergy, with members that were closely involved with the clergy, that he would be able to get to a better understanding of why this happened. 

What he found was that no one was willing to engage in conversation with him. Then when he was given the opportunity to go to the UN, he came at it from a very sensible, almost anthropological angle. He said, specifically, that he believed that it was incredibly important for men to get involved in the fight against FGM. That men needed to say loudly and strongly that they were against it, that they believed it was bad. 

Mariya Karimjee: I mean, the world is inherently misogynist. When he did that, of course, that made bigger waves than anything that I had done. As a result, he was vilified by the sect. His refrain was that, “I tried to have these conversations. I’ve tried time and time again to have these conversations. No one was going to have them with me. Then finally, I just did this because I really do believe that it’s barbaric.”

Now, he’s grappling with the fact that a religion that he loved so much, a community that he had believed in so strongly, is deeply, inherently flawed. And that has been really difficult for him. But at the same time, he believes so strongly and so purely that FGM is wrong. That he can’t really forgive the sect for how they’ve handled this. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. Wow. Well, I hope that he finds a way through that that feels good, so that he can maintain that connection to his faith. But also continue using his voice and his privilege and his power to have these important conversations. And to ask other men to step up and ask these questions. I mean, that quote that you shared from the father of an FGM survivor and his thoughts about what had happened, that to me is also really, really powerful part of the story. How has your father reacted to all of this?

Mariya Karimjee: My father, he feels really, really bad. Like really, really bad. Subjectively, this was terrible. It’s funny because he read that initial piece called “Damage.” He read that, and he walked away from that really conflicted. Then finally asked for forgiveness, which I didn’t even realize that he got that he was complicit in that. So the fact that he saw himself as responsible for what happened, and then asked for forgiveness, I thought was pretty remarkable. 

At the same time, he and my mother have both been exceptional at supporting both my brother and I in taking this fight to the next level to the public, in the fact that we think this is wrong. My father has been told by some of his friends that he needs to stop sharing what we do online, etc. because it looks bad, and he hasn’t really stopped. He’s still very, very proud of us. My mother as well. She doesn’t share anything on social media, but is quietly having those kinds of conversations. I think both of them are trying to find the best way forward.

Dawn Serra: Has your father talked at all about what his experience was during the time that you were cut? Was he aware of the conversations happening? Was he aware that this was about to be done or was recently done to you? Or, was this really something that was kept within the women of the family, and he just  had a vague idea that it might happen at some point? 

Mariya Karimjee: From what I understand from what he and my mother have said at separate occasions is that my mother did go to him. She said, “I need you to back me up in this fight against your parents.” And he was just “meh” because he didn’t necessarily understand the severity of what my mother was asking for. Or, he just didn’t want to pick a fight with his parents. Who knows what his reasoning was at the time? But he was just– I don’t think that he was like, “You’re not allowed to fight for our daughter.” It was more like, “Please leave me out of this,” is my understanding of it. I haven’t necessarily asked specifically, just because I don’t want either one of them to feel like accused. But that is what I pieced together. 

Dawn Serra: Yeah. So I have two last questions. The first is, I know that there are so many amazing things going on in your life and that your FGM experience is such a tiny percentage of who you are and what you’re working on. First, I’d love to know, what’s next for you? What’s coming up for you? What are you excited about?

Mariya Karimjee: Spiegel & Grau, which is an imprint of Penguin Random House, just bought my memoir. That’s pretty exciting. I haven’t finished writing it quite yet. So they bought it on partial. But, yeah. I’m working on finishing that up. And I’m really, really excited. I have always wanted to write a book. Of course, the FGM story will be a part of it. But it’s more about family and immigration and identity and belonging, and how we define ourselves as being from a place or what we decide our home is. So, yeah. That’s what I’m excited about. That’s what I’m currently working on.

Dawn Serra: Congratulations. That’s awesome. Yeah, I loved reading about your move to Houston when you were a kid and how desperately you wanted the Christmas tree and just that process of being in Houston and having these new experiences, and your parents getting that Christmas tree. I’m looking forward to reading your memoir and just digging more into some of those stories. That’s awesome.

Mariya Karimjee: I mean, it’s the most exciting thing that I’ve ever done. I’m a little bit biased. Like I said, I’m still writing it. So it might be a little while.

Dawn Serra: Is there anything else that you’re working on or is most of your attention right now? Like, “I’ve got to write this memoir.”

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah, that. I don’t necessarily freelance when I’m not in Karachi, but I just got back. I have a couple of half-baked story ideas that I want to see if there’s a fresh angle on. Most of them are women’s rights stories. One is looking at forced conversions of young Hindu women who are kidnapped as children, and then married off to Muslims and forced into conversion. The other is a deeper investigation into the legal implications of our very shoddy rape laws in this country.

Dawn Serra: By this country, do you mean Pakistan or the United States? 

Mariya Karimjee: Yes, Pakistan. I mean, it’s all relative. It’s all relative.

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I just saw a headline actually yesterday that a Switzerland court found a man guilty of rape for secretly removing a condom during intercourse, when she had basically said, “I’ll only have sex with you if you wear a condom.” So he put one on, but then during intercourse, removed it secretly. This Swiss court found him guilty of rape because she didn’t consent to that act. And it started this really intense conversation about how that would never happen here in the United States.

Mariya Karimjee: Of course, not. Yeah.

Dawn Serra: But, yeah. It would be really interesting to read your piece about Pakistan and what that looks like, too.

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah. Well, I mean, let’s see how far I go with it.

Dawn Serra: The last thing I want to just briefly touch on before we wrap up is I know that what started so much of your conversation about what happened to you was getting your hands on a copy of “Our Bodies, Ourselves,” when you were young, and seeing drawings of vulvas and anatomy, and comparing them to your body and realizing something was very different. I’d love to know, because that was so influential for you having access to that information, what is your perspective on getting information about bodies and sex to young girls in countries where maybe it’s less accessible? Is there a way that we can enable that information? Do you think that’s an important part of what needs to happen?

Mariya Karimjee: Yes. I mean, that book was eye-opening for me. I think about my brother, who’s three years younger than me, and all of his friends. They got 95% of their information about sex from the internet. I was just literally three years older than him, and the internet was not that accessible to me at that point. So I did have to go to books. Sometimes I think about that. I’m like, “The internet is a dark, horrible place.” I’m so glad that I had a book that outlined so much for me in a way that was almost academic, but also so digestible. So I do believe that in Pakistan, mostly kids are getting their information about sex– They’re not getting it at sex ed from school. They might be getting, “Here’s how reproduction works,” but they’re not getting, “Use a condom,” in Pakistan whatsoever. 

Sex is personal and intimate and scary. Sometimes you can’t talk to your girlfriends about it. Maybe your girlfriends don’t know a whole lot about it. You can’t talk to your mom. I don’t know. Where do you go to? What do you Google? What does Google get you? 

Dawn Serra: Mixed results.

Mariya Karimjee: Exactly. What if you’re trying to figure out what sex looks like, and you get onto a hardcore pornography site? You’re scared for the rest of your life. 

Dawn Serra: I don’t know if I want that done to me.

Mariya Karimjee: Exactly. This does not look fun for the woman etc. So, yeah. I think that’s super, super important. But I have no idea what the actual approach to getting that information to people would look like. I mean, it would be a fundamental recalibration of how we think about sex. Right?

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. I mean, even here in the States, which, let’s be honest, is not one of the most progressive places in the world when it comes to sex education. But teaching sex to kids here is so controversial. Yet, so many of us in Western society feel like we are so superior to so many other cultures for our access to sex information. Yet, it’s so sadly limited. Could you see yourself at any point moving into a space where you’re writing a book or doing any kind of work around sex education for girls?

Mariya Karimjee: Maybe. I don’t know. I just feel like I haven’t necessarily worked in that space extensively. I would have to do so much research. Yeah. I think it’d be really interesting now that you’re bringing it up. I should look at other countries that have maybe implemented this kind of model. If they got funding, I can imagine funding for something like this is really hard to get because most government programs are going to be, “Oh, hell no!”

Dawn Serra: We’re not touching that. 

Mariya Karimjee: Someone shared a really interesting article with me about a graphic, almost a comic about a girl’s first period that was being distributed within Pakistan. It’s a fascinating little pamphlet. It talks about– Because a lot of these girls didn’t have moms who would tell them that a period was imminent. Then they’d go to school and think they were dying or go home and not be able to talk about their parents or to their parents. Then someone came up with this amazing little story about a girl and her first period. It’s very beautifully done, and that removes a lot of the shame element that comes along with a lot of conversations about periods. It normalizes it, and makes it very comfortable, and gives you language and questions. and so on and so forth, to ask. The entire procedure isn’t– I have seen things like that going on. But again, can you imagine in the United States, a girl who’s 11 years old not knowing what her period is before she gets her period?

Dawn Serra: Yeah, yeah. I think one of the things that, as you were talking occurred to me too, is there’s so much danger in Western sex educators wanting to create materials for Muslim communities and African communities and Hindu communities of applying this Western ideal to the information that’s provided. I see so much value in people within the community creating these things. Writing these pamphlets about your first period with an understanding of what is your community like, what are the terms that are safe to use, and that make you feel comfortable and talking about these things. How can we empower sex educators and creators within each of these communities to be creating the content so that they’re most relevant and most understanding of all the issues rather than the savior complex like, “I’m American, and I know all the sex things. I write this book for all these people who don’t have access to sex education.” I see so much danger in that approach. 

Mariya Karimjee: Of course, yeah. 

Dawn Serra: Well, I would love it if you would share with all of our listeners how they can stay in touch with you, and where they can find you online. I will, of course, for this episode, link to your stories so that they can listen to them if they haven’t heard it already. But how can people stay along with you on your journey, and find out when your memoir’s coming out?

Mariya Karimjee: Yeah, Twitter. Twitter is the best way to get a hold of me. If not, then emails. So my Twitter handle is… I am sorry. I made it way back in the day of the internet, but it’s @m_karimjee. Yeah, if you tweet at me, I will respond. If you want to send me an email, just send it to mariyakarimjee@gmail.com. Usually, I’m pretty good about responding to that. If you find me on Facebook and send me a message and I don’t respond, it’s probably because I just haven’t gone in on Facebook and looked at my messages. 

Dawn Serra: Good to know. 

Mariya Karimjee: Least effective way to get a hold of me.

Dawn Serra: There you go. So what not to do. Well, Mariya, I just want to thank you so much for being so generous, and coming on the show, and talking a little bit about your story and your family. Also, sharing those really powerful quotes from other people who have experienced FGM. I think this is going to be a really thought-provoking episode for everyone who is listening.

Mariya Karimjee: Thanks guys for listening. And thank you so much, Dawn, for your thoughtful question. 

Dawn Serra: Oh, sure. Yeah. To everyone listening, thank you so much. You can head to dawnserra.com for this episode to find all of the links to the stories, some of the organizations that Mariya mentioned, and of course, for all of Mariya’s links. If you have any questions or comments, you can contact me there. Feel free to send them in. Also, don’t forget, I’m still accepting listener confessions for this month’s theme. So until next week. This is Dawn Serra. Bye!