Sex Gets Real 145: Erotic filmmaking and pornography with visionary Erika Lust

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This week there are two listener confessions – one at the beginning of the episode and another at the end after the interview.

And who am I chatting with this week? The incredible Erika Lust about being an erotic filmmaker, the porn industry, evoking powerful performances from her actors, and her new non-profit helping parents to talk about porn with their kids.

Of all the erotic filmmakers doing ethical porn in the world, Erika’s videos are some of the most arousing for me. I adore the humor and shamelessness of her stories. She seamlessly incorporates beauty, eroticism, and playfulness into each and every video in a way that I find endlessly delicious. She also has a new project to pull together loads of ethical, erotic films in one place for your porn viewing pleasure.

So here is me, geeking out over getting to chat with someone I deeply admire.

Follow Dawn on Instagram.

In this episode, Erika and I talk about:

• Erotic film and why Erika describes her work as independent adult cinema. Erika wants to play with the stories and the motivation behind sex. Not sex for sex’s sake.
• What Erika always felt was missing from mainstream porn and how she creates her stories for her films. Her focus on the motivation and the connection between the people in the story is so clear.
• All of the laughter on Erika’s sets, which you can see in all of the behind-the-scenes clips on XConfessions (or Vimeo). There is playfulness and giggling and silly faces. It’s clear folks really enjoy working with Erika and that Erika adores what she does.
• Why Erika compares her films to the slow food movement. Her analogy between fast food and fine dining is perfect for comparing porn tube sites with erotic, feminist, ethical films.
• Being proud of the porn you make and what that looks like. Erika talks about how when you see chickens in factory farms and the abuses, it makes you not want to eat that kind of chicken any longer. It’s the same with porn made in unethical situations. She challenges us to be smart consumers and dig into who is making what we’re watching.
• Working with a variety of people and bodies and why that yields better erotic films. Erika also prefers working with actors who are a little older because they often have more life experience to share on the screen.
• Mainstream porn has shown the same kinds of sexual tropes over and over again, and now we, as consumers, have internalized these things as how sex happens. Erika speaks to female orgasm. Mainstream porn depicts women as orgasming all the time from penetrative sex, but the reality is that’s not how most women orgasm. When we don’t have a variety of sexual models offering possibilities, we begin to internalize these stories as normal.
• What’s next for porn and erotic film. Erika has an optimistic view of a revolution that’s about to unfold and I am endlessly excited to see where we go over the next few years.
• When asked for a confession about a first, Erika shares a little about her first time directing an erotic film, which was called The Good Girl.
• Whether it’s arousing to be on a porn set. Erika explains how the technical aspects offer her a creative orgasm, and that for her, one of the most pleasurable parts of filming is seeing other people react to the final product.
• The importance of collaboration with the entire film crew, including the actors, on how a scene is set up and designed, how the performance will unfold – the group effort is a huge part of Erika’s film process.
• A new non-profit that Erika has launched with her husband called The Porn Conversation. It helps parents to talk about porn with their kids and offers resources for educating and having better conversations.

Resources discussed in this episode

Erika’s IKEA video, which is very funny, is in the XConfessions Volume 1 set.

About Erika Lust

Erika Lust is a filmmaker, mother, writer, blogger, owner and founder of Erika Lust Films where she offers an alternative to the mainstream porn industry. She is also the creator of groundbreaking audiovisual project XConfessions.com, the first crowdsourced series that brought adult film to cinema screens.

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Episode Transcript

Dawn Serra: You’re listening to (You’re listening) (You’re listening) You’re listening to Sex Gets Real (Sex Get Real) (Sex Gets Real) Sex Gets Real with Dawn Serra (with Dawn Serra). Thanks, bye!

Hello, you. It’s Dawn Serra with this week’s episode of Sex Gets Real. It is a doozy. First up, I want to let everyone know I’ve been getting emails from so many of you asking how you can support the podcast over the years and I finally got off my ass and created a Patreon for the show. I campaign endlessly for everyone to pay for their porn, and to pay sex educators. Because we all know that in our sex negative society, especially post-election, that sex and paying for it, it’s not something that’s valued. I continue to have a lot of shame around asking for money to help me support the podcast. I decided that as my act of resistance, I would step up and actually say, “Hey, all of you who love the show, you can now support me and help me keeping the podcast going by going to patreon.com/sgrpodcast. Of course, there’s all kinds of fun rewards. I will be adding more rewards and, and changing things as we go and as I learn, but please check it out. $1 a month is the lowest reward and that would actually be really amazing and magical and lovely. So do check that out. 

Dawn Serra: I also want to let you know that HotelsByDay is back as a sponsor for this episode. As we get closer to Valentine’s Day, I want to remind all of you who have lovers or partners or sweethearts, or even just friends that you want to pamper. It can be a really fun thing around Valentine’s Day to set up some kind of daytime rendezvous, whether it’s for a day of spa treatments, or a sexy lunch away from the office, or you just want to get naked in the middle of the day as a nice little sexy roleplay treat. You can actually get 5% off with the code SGR5Off for Sex Gets Real at hotelsbyday.com. So don’t forget Valentine’s Day, just a couple of weeks away and this could be that super delicious surprise that you offer to someone. So check that out. Please be sure to head to their website, so that they know that all of you are hearing all of this. 

So, this episode features two listener confessions on the theme of firsts for January. The first listener confession is from Andrea about how attending her first munch changed her life. Then I’m going to have this amazing interview with Erika Lust, who I will tell you more about in just a minute. Then, after my interview with Erika, be sure to stay tuned because there is another confession from Brian about his very first prostate orgasm, and I actually had a voice over actor read Brian’s story; so you can settle in for all of the delicious and very naughty. I might add details at the end of this episode. Here is Andrea with her confession about attending her first month.

Listener Confession: “I’m here to tell you the story of my first munch. I asked you to please be patient through the backstory, because I feel that it adds significance to what happens at the end. I’ve been married for 10-years, and I’m going through a divorce. My marriage was good at the beginning. My husband was addicted to porn and masturbation, and how that showed up in our lives is that we had a sexless marriage. He never really touched me. Because cheating was not available to me, I read a lot of books, romance books, mostly with good sex in them. I did a lot of masturbating – a lot of masturbate I ended up becoming more and more interested in stories that had a BDSM bend to them. Of course, 50 Shades of Grey came out and I read all of those books, and I realized that I actually really liked this stuff and that it’s okay for me to admit that.” 

“My ex-husband had moved out of the house. I was letting go of my marriage, I was letting go have what I thought I was supposed to be. In the middle of that, I decided I no longer had to ignore my sexuality. I got on fetlife.com and I found a local group of BDSM, and I went to a munch. I made the plan. I got in the car. I drove to the meeting place, which was just a restaurant. I sat in the driveway of the restaurant. I sat in the parking lot having this type of conversation with myself, “You’re not going in there. Are you crazy? You’ve got kids at home. You are not going in there.” “You drove all the way to the restaurant. Yes, you are going in there. All you’re going to do is talk to some people. Your normal, they’re normal. You’re going.” “No, you’re not. It doesn’t matter that you drove all the way here. You don’t have to go into that restaurant.” 

Listener Confession: “So I took a deep breath and I put on my big girl panties. And I walked in, and I was nervous, I was scared. I didn’t really know what I was doing. I ended up having a wonderful conversation with a bunch of wonderful people. They were community college professors and IT professionals and completely… Yes, I am using air quotes “normal” people. So I really enjoyed it. I didn’t see anyone there that I was particularly attracted to, but I didn’t care. It felt so good to be able to be with people who were so honest about the kind of sexuality that they were into. So I had spent a couple of hours – I had a cocktail and some appetizers, and I decided it was time to go, and I was starting to get my stuff together. This man walks in. He was very late. I thought, “Oh, who is that?” We definitely had chemistry and there was a spark on both sides. He asked for my screen name, and I thought, “Oh, he’ll never contact me.” Except that he did.”

“For someone who was lonely, even though I was married, I was lonely in my marriage. Even though I had been out of the marriage for a year, it was so painful that I had just been lonely for a very long time. I found someone. I found someone that I was able to play with, and have fun with. He healed me through touch in ways that I didn’t even know I needed to be healed. It was incredible. Really, it was exactly what I needed. He and I are still together. It’s been two years now. We are completely enjoying exploring our sexuality together, and we’re having fun. I had no idea that my very first munch was going to lead to something that has really opened up my whole life. Thank you.”

Dawn Serra: Thank you so much for sharing that with us, Andrea. That was wonderful and delightful, and such a delicious first. Next up is my chat with Erika Lust. Erika Lust is a filmmaker and a mom, a writer, a blogger, and owner and founder of Erika Lust Films where she offers an alternative to the mainstream porn industry. She’s also the creator of a groundbreaking audio visual project called xconfessions.com, which is the first crowdsource series that brought adult film to cinema screens. Erika’s films are some of the hottest, for me, that are out on the market when it comes to ethical porn and erotic films, and my desperately budding little erotic filmmaker heart with love to be like her someday. 

So I hope you enjoy this fantastic chat with Erika. Then even though at the end of my chat with Erika, I sign off, there is a second listener confession at the end. So stay tuned for Brian’s confession all about his first prostate orgasm with his wife, and it’s super explicit. 

Dawn Serra: Welcome to the show, Erika. I am ridiculously excited to talk to you today.

Erika Lust: Thank you very much.

Dawn Serra: I’ve done so much wonderful – it’s the best homework in the world when I get to watch porn and watch behind the scenes of making porn, to really get a feel for your aesthetic, and the kinds of videos that you do. One of the things that I just really love about your films is that there’s these little moments of humor. Either the entire film is funny like the one about building IKEA furniture, or there’s these little winks and nods to the audience, where you see like a picture of a fox and a hare that refers back to another video in the series. I think what really comes forward for me about your films is because there’s this little wink and nod, and tongue in cheek – it feels really unapologetic and shame-free, like there’s no thing that you’re hiding in what you’re doing and it feels really open. I love that so much. I mean, your films are, I think, some of the hottest in the world. But I would love to know for our listeners, how you would describe your films to someone who hasn’t seen them before?

Erika Lust: I used to say that what I do is independent adult cinema. When I say those three words are not used normally because it’s– I mean, it’s obviously adult work. But it’s independent because I finance it myself and I make it myself. It’s cinema because I work with the medium of cinema. So they are really films. I’m interested in the vision of it and the narrative, and all of these different details. For me, it’s really about playing with this medium and telling stories about sex. That’s what I’m interested in. 

I used to say I’m not interested in porn as porn – I’m interested in sex and I’m interested in all these different stories and ideas around it. I think that’s the great challenge. So what I do is I play with this and I imagine in my mind the films out of people’s confessions. Then I sit down with my team and my crew, and think about how can we make this situation or this story into something really intriguing and fascinating, and beautiful.

Dawn Serra: I love that you say stories about sex. I feel that when I watch your films in that – there’s such an emphasis on how the two people are relating and the little moments: the gasps, the eye contact, the touching, even the motivation behind why people are choosing to have sex with each other. 

Erika Lust: That’s exactly what I kind of – when I started to look at regular porn, somehow, that’s what I felt I was missing out on. I felt that most of it was boring because it didn’t really tell anything about these people – who they were, why they adored each other, why they wanted each other, what was the whole situation between them, where did that desire came from? I think that for me that’s the most important part when I’m constructing a situation or a story – thinking about the context: who are these people? Why do they want each other? In what situation are they? In what location are they? And trying to create that story out of it. Then I think it’s very interesting when you talk about the fun of it – all these funny moments and situations that have a lot to do with that. For me, sex is really something that I think is a lot of fun. I see many times in regular porn that it’s so serious somehow. I miss out on people having fun.

Dawn Serra: That’s actually one of the things that stood out to me the most when I was watching. So for people who are listening, if you go to Vimeo and search for Erika Lust, you can actually see a whole bunch of behind the scenes compilations from all the xconfessions filmings and some interviews – that what struck me so much about this behind the scenes was the laughter between takes, the laughter on the set, your excitement over what was about to happen. Even while the filming was happening, you’re silently cheering, you’re covering your mouth with excitement over what was unfolding before you. There’s this clear joy that’s coming out of, not only you, but everyone who’s on the set, and that feels really special.

Erika Lust: It’s amazing, really, watching people who are into each other having great sex. I mean, it’s so much wonderful energy going on. I think that is really something that makes these films very different from the mainstream pornography that many times feel like the actors are not really into each other, especially the women. They tend to look like they could do something else instead, “What can I do for dinner tonight?” or whatever. But many times you don’t see that passion between them. I think one of the most important ingredients is actually the cast, obviously, how you choose your actors and that you talk to them and you make them “choose” each other kind of. Every time when I’m doing a casting interview, when I’m getting to know a new actor or an actress, I try to figure out who they are, what they like, and what people do they like, who the other actors or actresses would they like to work with. So all of them – they have their favorite list, where I know people they are already interested in and then when I get to combine people for a shooting, then I can look at that list and I know if they’re interested in working with that actor or actress, if it’s someone that they already feel into.

Dawn Serra: That feels really special and I think that comes across so clearly in the films that you make. Even in the behind the scenes of the way the actors are eating lunch together and interacting with each other, and having these conversations. I mean, it feels personal and I love that. I know that you’ve compared your films to the slow food movement or traditional porn is more like fast food. I would love it if you could expand on that a little bit.

Erika Lust: I think that most of the porn out there today, it’s mass produced and it’s produced by people who are not really caring about the films or the people in them, what they are caring about the most is earning money out of the business they are doing. I feel that when people ask me, “What about your movies? How do they relate to this?” I used to say, “It’s the same as the restaurant business, the fine family restaurant.” Burger King or McDonald’s or Kentucky Fried Chicken – the only thing they have in common is that they are selling food. They are providing food to people. But everything else is different about experience – the ingredients, the food they choose, if they go to the market, or if they go to the supermarket, the chefs working behind, the ambience in the restaurant – all of it. It’s about all that experience. 

I think that sometimes people are, today, watching porn online for free on all these tubes – all these porn tubes. There’s so many of them and most of the content is shitty. It’s not very interesting, it’s not very interesting cinema graphic-wise. It’s not very interesting – the quality they are providing. It’s surrounded by this ugly pop-ups that are selling all kinds of different products like viagra and medical drugs, and they have many times very horrible banners saying “Fuck a teenager close to your home”, or “Watch grandma pee”, or just ugly contented around it. I feel that many times getting so anti-erotic, and I want to create this erotic experience and this beautiful feeling that when you get into my world online and my websites, you feel comfortable with everything you see around you – that you feel that all around it’s full of beauty and erotic images that are appealing. 

Erika Lust: Back to the food, if you think about these videos that we’ve seen on the internet, now a few years back, the chickens standing next to each other in the chicken factories – that’s a horrible image. When you see that you, or at least, I feel like I would not like to eat that kind of chicken ever, ever again. When I give up porn, I think the same way that if you realize how a lot of the porn is actually made with the people behind it, then you don’t want to consume that kind of product any longer. I think that one of the things that could be very interesting is if people, as responsible consumers, start looking at the content, they are actually consuming: who’s behind it. If you go online and you search on porn websites, have a look. Do they have an About section where they talk about the people behind this site? Or is it just a regular name of a company where there’s no faces and no actual names. I want to feel that the people who are working with me, we are all proud of what we do. This is porn that you can be proud of. It feels good. We know we want values, we made it. We know that it’s been made in an ethical process where we care about everyone involved: the crew and the cast, and our audience.

Dawn Serra: That’s something that, really, I adore about what you’re doing. I get so many emails from people who are struggling with their penis size or because they can’t orgasm when their boyfriend fucks them, or they have a lot of anxiety around not only the performance aspect of sex that we’ve all been learning from porn, but also, there’s this struggle that I’m noticing around the vulnerability and the connection piece. 

Erika Lust: That they’re not good enough, right?

Dawn Serra: Right, exactly. 

Erika Lust: Because there’s all these porn athletes. What they are, really, they are not really, of course they are people, but still… I mean, chosen to do that kind of work because they probably have a better management of their penises than just a regular guy. I think that what many, many people want is to see more down to earth, normal people being involved in sexual actions. I see it all the time. I hear my audience writing to me and asking me for more diversity, for more people of different races, for more people have different body types, for more people of different ages. They want to see the whole humanity kind of on the screen, not only the penetrative masculine in their porn machines pumping, pumping pumping, and the Barbie dolls one one style or another. 

I mean if you go to many of these porn sites online, even many of the glamorous sites that are supposed to stand for a more beautiful image and all of that part, but still, you see exactly the same girl time after time after time. She only has a different hairstyle, a different hair color, but it’s the same very young teenage body – late teenager, of course, because we all know that you can’t work in adult work if you’re under 18. But what is happening is that many of these directors and producers – they are making these girls look younger than they actually are. But I feel that when it comes to finding actors and actresses, it’s a lot more interesting, working with people who have more of a real life experience. Many times when you are very young, you haven’t experienced so much, so maybe you don’t have as much to transmit on screen as someone a little older with a whole other erotic process that they have gone through in life.

Dawn Serra: Something really interesting occurred to me as you’re talking just now because one of the things that I’ve talked about on the show and had other sex educators talk about on the show is that because we don’t see sex modeled for us when we’re growing up by our parents, and we don’t have an opportunity to actually see sex happening, that porn often becomes the way that we inform ourselves of what sex is supposed to look like, how we’re supposed to look, and who we’re supposed to desire. I think that also with that comes a certain level of shame. I wonder if from a marketing perspective for the bigger porn companies, is it profitable for people to feel ashamed of their sexuality? Because if you can’t share your sexuality with others, then you’re going to come keep coming back to the place where you can experience that sexuality. It’s going to be the traditional pornography. It’s the secret that you keep, whereas with your films there’s this feeling of, there’s nothing to be ashamed of. There’s nothing to hide from. There’s all of these different ways to experience your body, to experience pleasure, to engage with others, and it feels like an invitation and a re-education.

Erika Lust: I’m really happy when I hear you saying that, obviously, because it’s something that I’ve been trying to do really, with my work. I’m trying to show a more diverse view of sexuality. I think that there’s so many people having so many issues with insecurity when it comes to sex, feeling that somehow they are strange or different from normal people because they have inclinations to different styles of sex that are not portrayed as the normal ways sometimes. I think that if you watch this kind of new adult indie cinema that is becoming more and more popular lately – I think that if you watch that kind of films, you can actually re-educate yourself somehow. You can start feeling that maybe your kind of sexuality is represented on screen and feel more secure, that you are not alone, of being that kind of person. That there’s other people wanting to say. 

I mean, there’s so many things that we’ve seen in the ministry of traditional porn time after time, that we actually started to believe that that’s the way it’s done. You talked before, for example, about women thinking that they can’t orgasm. One of the most interesting things when it comes to this issue is that most mainstream traditional porn shows women orgasm out of penetrative sex. But when it comes to investigation, people are actually telling us the truth that most women orgasm through clitoral stimulation. But we don’t see that so much in regular porn. For example, when I worked with my cast, most actresses, almost all of them, they touch themselves when that moment is coming. To see this kind of sexual behavior, it helps you a lot to relax and start to understand, “Okay, so maybe it’s not just me. Maybe it’s the way that it is actually works.”

Dawn Serra: I actually read in an interview that you did a little while back that you don’t require your female actresses to orgasm as part of a scene, that you’re actually more interested in the experience, the pleasure and the connection. That feels super refreshing to me for that reason that you just stated and I’d love to know, is that still something that you subscribe to?

Erika Lust: Yes, definitely. I mean, it’s impossible – you can’t ask someone to orgasm because it’s a film. It’s something that sometimes happens and sometimes it doesn’t, and it has a lot to do with different factors of how comfortable you feel, the climate around you, if it’s hot or if it’s cold, or do you have a good connection with your partner or not? Even in normal life, in a partnership, there’s days where you are more connected and days where you’re not. But still sex can be fantastic, even if you’re not having an orgasm. So I think that that is something that you have to leave up to every situation. You don’t need to show it in every movie you make. The movies can be very different. I have a lot of movies also where men are cumming on screen or ejaculating, of course, but then I have a lot others where you don’t see it. Whether it’s an internal cum shot or it’s not just happening because it’s, for example, a BDSM situation where it’s all about pleasing her and it’s not really his moment of having his release. So in the end, it all depends on the situation. 

I think that what we are really looking for here is a different variety, the liberation of not having to see the same kind of sexual situation time after time. It doesn’t have to be the blow job and then he eats her, and then they do penetrative positions, like four or five, then she cums in a fake shout out, and then he cums on her. It can be a lot of different kind of sexual situations.

Dawn Serra: Going back to talking about the tube sites and traditional porn, I had Rain DeGrey on recently who does BDSM porn. She was talking about how a lot of the big porn production companies are really struggling because of these tube sites and that kink.com actually cut its filming in half over the summer. But it really looks like, to me at least and correct me if I’m wrong, that your company seems to really be thriving to have an engaged audience, people who are willing to pay for access to their erotic viewing. I’d love to know, what do you see as being the future of erotic film and pornography? It seems we’re kind of in a shifting time right now.

Erika Lust: Thank you very much for saying that. It makes me very happy to hear that you see that this is happening and that essentially we are growing year after year, and we have the most wonderful audience out there. People are really – they are contributing, they are active, they are writing. I think that when I started three years ago, this project that I’m working on at this moment called xconfessions.com, which is actually a participatory project. People are sending in their sexual stories, fantasies, adventures to the site and what I do is that every month, I choose to have them and I turn them into erotic short films. I can see that this was something that really engaged my audience. They feel that they can take part in this project. And I think they really liked that idea. 

But what do I see when it comes to erotica and pornography? I think it has huge potential and I think we haven’t really seen it yet. Because we haven’t seen this creative revolution happening, but I think it started and I think it’s in it’s beginning, and we’re going to see much more of it. I think we’re going to see people who are actually filmmakers wanting to deal with sex on screen and showing how you can show that in all these different visions. For me, I think that is what is the most challenging and that is also why I decided with my company that we are starting to produce new directors, preferably female directors. Last year, we produced five films from different directors, and this year we are looking for many more. Because I think it’s essential to the indie adults, really, that we can see new creators thinking about sex and showing how they wanted to look on screen. Most of these porn directors and porn producers, they’ve been the same kind of guy. It was the guy with the car and the girl, and he likes the boobs and the ass – that kind of guy. So he made his fantasy out of porn, and his fantasy… Well, that’s what it is, but there’s not much more to it. I think that if new people, new blood, is getting into the genre, and starting to dare with pornography, starting to explore or the potential it has, and all all the possibly cinematic graphic visions you can make out of it, then I think we’re getting into very interesting material.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, I get excited just listening to you talk about that, and the variety that’s so desperately needed. We need to be able to see different bodies, different abilities, different ages, different experiences. I was talking to my husband the other day and I told him that I think one of the first videos that I would want to make, if I was going to make an erotic film, would involve two really sexy people having really incredible, mind blowing sex, but the guy would have a soft cock for the scene. Because I feel so much distress from my male listeners around cock performance and cock size. To me, I don’t think you have to have a raging hard on to have amazing sex. That’s what hands and mouths, and toys and rubbing, and touching are for. To me to be able to create this erotic scene where it’s not about the cock, it’s about having amazing sex and that happens to be part of the scene feels refreshing to me like permission to do hot sex when your body isn’t cooperating.

Erika Lust: But you see, this is exactly what we’re talking about. This is thinking outside the box. That’s what they haven’t really done and I think that’s why mainstream porn is getting so boring, because it’s been too many years now of the same kind of thing. I’m quite sure it’s going to change. I’m quite sure that this is the new era of erotica. We’re going to see a lot of new things.

Dawn Serra: I hope so we need it.

Erika Lust: I believe in people. I really believe in people. I think that we can create awareness. I think that many porn consumers out there, it’s just that they never ever thought about it. They were served free porn on the tube sites and for a while, they thought, “Okay, so this is vankable material. I’m happy, this is good enough for me.” But then when you start talking to them and when you reach out to them, and when you connect and start saying, “Hey, but didn’t you see that girl in that video, she didn’t seem happy. It wasn’t so interesting.” Then suddenly, I can see that they are starting to notice it. Suddenly they’re like, “Wow, now when you said this, I can’t enjoy it the same way as I was enjoying it before.” Then they’re starting to look for something else, for deeper sexual connection because in the end what we are looking for when we look for pornography somehow, is looking for deeper sexual connection. We want to see something that really makes us feel, “Wow, that’s what we’re looking for.”

Dawn Serra: So I’m going to put you on the spot just a little bit. You mentioned that your projects that you’re working on right now involve listener or watcher confessions – viewer confessions, and that’s how you come up with so much of this content for your xconfessions series, which for all of the listeners, please go check them out. They are so hot and so beautiful. But I also have listener confessions on the show, and this month’s theme is around firsts. What I’ve asked listeners is, of course you can share your traditional first time you had sexual intercourse, but I’m really interested in also the first time you realized you were queer, or the first time you realized that a relationship wasn’t working for you or the first time you thought maybe your body was actually really beautiful. If you have a story, I would love to know maybe a first of yours either as a director or as a creative person, or even in your personal life that you’d be willing to share.

Erika Lust: Wow. First time story. Oh my god, I don’t know what to choose. Of course, the first time I directed an explicit film was something very, very special for me. Still today, when I look back at my first film, it was called “The Good Girl”, and I directed it in 2004. I had absolutely no idea really what to do and how to interact with adult performers, and what I could expect of them, and how it was going to turn out, and if I had to jump in there and explain things or not. So I was terribly nervous. The funny thing is that I really found the most lovely, wonderful people who had such good sex that day and in the end, I had to sit back and and look at the monitor and enjoy what was happening. It was like, “Hey bring out the popcorn. This is already working out.” That day, I especially realized that it had a lot to do with the cast. It has a lot to do with that chemistry. It has a lot to do with finding people who really want to be together in front of the camera. If you don’t have that, you have nothing and it will show on the camera. That’s the way it is. 

So for me, one of the things that I’ve done quite a lot is trying to find couples, real couples that also work together. When you find them, you can really really see the chemistry and the security they have in each other. It’s so different from when you have two people who don’t really know each other and who haven’t explored each other before they are performing together in front of the camera.

Dawn Serra: Well, thank you for letting me put you on the spot.

Erika Lust: It wasn’t as personal as you may have wanted.

Dawn Serra: No, it was perfect because I love hearing that you were nervous and you didn’t know what to do and you weren’t sure how involved you were going to have to get. Yet, you forged ahead anyway and then you created this thing that felt beautiful.

Erika Lust: But still today, every time I shoot, I’m so nervous. I think I’m probably the most nervous person on set. Because for me, it is very personal in a way because when we are actually after shooting and we’re about to shoot the sex. It’s the moment where everything has to come together and sometimes I’ve worked for months before that day, and I have my expectations and the things I want to see and to come through at that moment. I think that sometimes is why you see me in the making of being very jumpy and nervous, and shouting sometimes and almost having an orgasmic moment when it’s done. That’s my kind of release.

A lot of people ask me, they’re always like, “Hey, but tell me do you get turned on when you’re on set?” I will always say, “In a way, always when I’m shooting, somehow I am turned on but at the same time it’s so technical.” So it’s not like you can sit back and have a good time because normally I’m concentrating on all those details on the monitor, and if the lighting is right, and if I see shade in a corner, or if I need to get in there and take the clothes out of the bed because it’s making a dark spot in the middle and I don’t want that for the photography and for the colors. F For me, in the shooting, it’s still very, very technical. But then sometimes I have these wonderful moments when I’m going, for example, to a screening in a cinema or a festival, and I haven’t watched that movie that they are going to show for quite a while. Then I sit down with the audience and everything. When I start to hear them laugh and relax, and I see that they are all happy, then I feel so much pleasure, it’s just amazing that moment.

Dawn Serra: Yeah, it sounds like creative ecstasy.

Erika Lust: It is. It is, really. It is fantastic. I mean, really for me, there’s nothing that I can imagine better in life than able to work with cinema. I mean, I just love it. For me, it’s like the biggest passion I ever had and to be able to make all these films during this different kind of world because every film that I make as I work with this short film format, every film that I make is a completely different kind of vision. They’re so different between them.I think that is like having this cinematic laboratory where I can play and I can have fun. Then I have the best group in the world. Now I’m talking so much about me, me, me, but it’s really I am definitely not the only one making these movies and we are a big crew. We are a great crew. Most of them are women. I have 90% of women in my film crew. We’ve been working together now and most of us for three years together so we have a wonderful connection. The energy that we have been on set, the understanding we have is just fabulous. 

In the beginning of my career when I started to work with film, I had a lot more men on set as technicians. And it’s very normal to have a lot of men because most of the people working as film technicians are men. But I could definitely feel a difference when I brought more and more women on board in the way we are communicating and understanding each other, the language we use. When I worked with more men, and I had to be so much more strict and demanding in my instructions to people. When I work with women, I can suggest things in another way. And still they understand that I’m the director and if I’m suggesting something, it’s probably because I want it to happen. So when I say, “What do you think if we instead of shooting in that corner, we shoot in the other corner?” Many men would just say to me like, “Nah, don’t say it.” But women they’re like, “Okay, so I’m understanding that she’s wanting to do this other thing.” I think that also in my crew, with a lot of women, it’s so much easier for them to allow themselves to speak out and to share their opinions, and not to feel that they are not good enough or they don’t know enough about their work to be able to make suggestions.

Dawn Serra: That really came through in the behind the scenes that I was watching, of seeing the different members of your crew suggesting design elements or suggesting a different entrance into the scene or making a recommendation of how the characters were going to initially interact or the way that they were going to be dressed. That collaboration felt really rich.

Erika Lust: Also the actors are collaborating in this process, obviously, they are bringing a lot to the characters that they are playing. An important part of why the films start looking so good is also that we are working with them already, when I’m writing the script. I’m sending it to them, I’m asking for their opinions if they feel comfortable in that kind of situation. So we are not casting a dominant person in a submissive role and vice versa. It’s important to know that it’s all working out. Then to get into the specifics when it comes to sex. In the beginning, I was a lot more afraid of asking that kind of things, even when I had to communicate with actors, I have to ask if they wanted to use a condom or not. I could feel a little like, “Whoo I don’t know if I should ask this or it’s just something kind of happening.” 

Today I realized that I need to get into all details because all details that you have talked about before shooting, it makes it so much easier at that point. Because then I already know if I’m working with actors and actresses who wants to use condoms or not. They already know that all the paperwork and all the health testing between them is done. They have seen the results of the other people. All that kind of stuff is very important. If we’re going to work with sex toys, they have chosen what kind of toys they would like to use. Everything is cleared out. I hear a lot – I mean when it comes to the process, and the working conditions for adult actors and actresses, it’s very important to say that it’s one of the most important things for the ethical working process; it’s that you talked about this before, that you won’t pressure anyone on set into doing anything that wasn’t agreed. That it’s clear what payment will be made and what rights you are asking for as a company. 

Erika Lust: I hear many porn companies out there doing porn videos for tubes and sites and stuff that are not really respecting that kind of working conditions. Many people are calling actors saying, “Hey, come to this location to stay on 10 o’clock.” But they don’t even know with whom they are going to act. Then they don’t explain exactly what kind of sexual content that scene will contain. Sometimes there’s even in situations where producers and directors are pushing them into doing more than they had wanted to do beforehand. It’s very delicate because, of course, when you are in front of the camera having sex, you are in a very vulnerable situation. As a production company, as a producer, director, if you don’t respect your actors, then it will be catastrophic. It won’t work in the long run. 

Dawn Serra: I would love to pivot because in the last conversation that we were just having, you were talking about the ethics behind filming and respecting your actors and consent. I know that you and your husband have launched a nonprofit called “The Porn Conversation For Parents”, and I would love it if you would share with the listeners a little bit about what that project is.

Erika Lust: The Porn Conversation started because we are parents to two daughters. They’re six and nine at this point. We realize the impact really of starting to talking to them about, definitely about sex, but also touching the subject of a pornography. Then there’s a lot of parents saying, “What in the world, what? You said they’re very young, why would you like to talk about porn with them?” Then I have to say, “No, it’s not that I want to talk about porn with them. But I have to do it because I don’t really have a choice.” I think this is something very important for all parents to realize because society changed very much the last 10-15 years. We have to understand that whether we want it to or not, today, porn online is used as sex education for a lot of young people. And that happens especially because in many, many countries, sex education in schools and in families are not really provided. 

So what happens is that quite young kids goes online, especially teenagers obviously, and they start searching for sex related information, but they end up on porn tubes basically. So that’s why we can’t really ignore the situation, and even when it comes to earlier ages and young children – it’s not that they are really searching for it, but they stumble upon it many times because they are looking for something completely innocent. They may search on their iPod in Google for a Disney Princess or some kind of character of a book, Harry Potter, or Princess Elsa of Frozen, and suddenly they start hitting on the pages where there’s sexually explicit content. So I think that instead of being afraid of the situation, we have to attack it. We have to talk to them about the things they can stumble upon beforehand so they are prepared when that situation shows up.

Dawn Serra: It’s funny that you say that kids can stumble on it because I remember when I was, I think freshman year in high school, I was probably around 13 years old. My dad and I really liked this television show called Seventh Heaven – it was a very innocent family show from the early 90s. We were sitting at my computer, and we just typed in seventhheaven.com assuming that’s how we would find out about the television show. And it took us immediately to a porn site. My dad was shocked and I was shocked, and we closed the window and laughed about it and didn’t talk about it again.

Erika Lust: But you kept wondering what was that?

Dawn Serra: Yeah. I mean, there was the music, there was a little woman crawling across the screen naked. I mean, it was the whole thing. But it happens and I imagine that a big part of being a parent talking to your child about porn requires a lot of education for the parent themselves who have grown up on porn too.

Erika Lust: Yeah, I think it’s one of the biggest problems, is that people are so afraid of it or so shamed by it or they don’t even want it to exist. It’s like, “Okay, so I can’t explain what the sex is to you. I will explain your biological function of the body and the reproduction, and that kind of thing.” But then when it comes to pleasure, because pornography has a lot to do with pleasure, right? That’s what we are looking for. Then they get very scared, they’re not so prepared for that kind of sexual activity just for the sexual activity. Still, that’s what you’re interested in when you’re starting to become aware of your body. Because you’re not really interested in reproduction, that’s not what you want at all. You only want to understand why you have this bubbly feeling in your body. That’s why you want to understand. 

When it comes to sex education, what happens a lot is that in school they concentrate very much on the negative side of sex, on the problems, and difficult things that can happen when you have sex. So they start talking about the– How do you say it in English, the STDs? They start talking about that, they start talking about pregnancy, they start talking even about the risk of getting raped and that kind of thing. When maybe what you first want to concentrate on is why do I feel this way? What is happening to me?

Dawn Serra: With your work for this Porn Conversation, which there’s resources on the website, so I hope everyone will go check it out. There’s videos and blogging. What do you hope is the number one takeaway for parents, the thing that you most hope that they have a conversation about?

Erika Lust: What the most conversation about… Well, especially, I want them to start thinking about it and stop pretending that it doesn’t exist. I think that’s the most important thing. Then it’s understanding that it’s not very different in the end from talking to your kids about alcohol, cigarettes, drugs, food, sugar, exercise – all these kind of things that you need to know when you are growing up. Because if you as a parent, don’t have that kind of conversations with your kids then other people will. What I mean by that is that obviously they will be curious and in school they are going to start to talk about things like pornography for example. Many of them, they will google it and they will start checking it out. 

So I would like parents to tell the kids basically, that pornography, in the way, exists online in most tubes out there today is a fantasy, a construction of sex, but it’s not actually the same thing as sex. I think that is the main idea. Because many teenagers who start looking at porn they, themselves, are starting to do sex the same way they see sex in pornography. And that means, especially that young women believe that sex is not really something for them. Instead it’s something that you would do to a man. You help him out to have his pleasure, and he’s ejaculation but it’s not really about you. That’s what most traditional porn tells us. Many men, young men, get to understand that girls should do it for you. She should really do it for you, but he doesn’t really get any ideas or techniques or feeling of how to connect with someone. 

Dawn Serra: One of the things that I constantly try to stress on the show is that being awkward in a conversation is okay, there’s a vulnerability in that that I think invites the other person to then also be awkward, but at least you’re moving forward together. I think one of the things that is so important for all of us, especially parents talking to kids is, you don’t have to have all the answers, you just have to be able to start the conversation. Because that also demonstrates to your kids that you don’t have to know all the things about sex. You can start being curious about your body and you can ask questions, and we’ll figure it out together. So I love that your nonprofit is about having a conversation, not about basically having a lecture of like, “Here’s all the things you shouldn’t do.”

Erika Lust: Exactly. It’s not really about teaching them and it’s not making them feel ashamed. You shouldn’t say, “Hey, I checked the computer and I’ve seen you’ve been online on all these tube sites and all these porn sites. Why have you done that and what have you been looking at?” That’s not the tone you should get. You should try to engage and start saying, “Hey, my computer lately, I don’t really understand what’s happening. But suddenly a lot of porn pops up on my computer. Have this happened to you also?” Then maybe they get interested and like, “Oh my god, yes. It happened to me also.” You can start talking about it in a more natural way.

Dawn Serra: I love that. I hope that anybody who has young people in their lives be it a parent or an aunt or an uncle heads over to The Porn Conversation to check out the resources and the videos that you have, because I think it’s so needed in this world – some support for parents and caretakers in how to even start talking about this.

Erika Lust: I agree. I mean, it makes us laugh because it feels very funny. It’s like, “No, why should I talk to my kids about porn? No, I don’t want to do that.” But you have to do it. You don’t have a choice really. Otherwise the ones who will tell them about sex will be the porn stars. It’s like having the drug dealers on the corner talking to them about drugs.

Dawn Serra: We are at the end of our hour and I would love it if you would share with our listeners, how they can stay in touch with you. How can they find your videos? How can they follow you on social media? Of course, I’ll have all those links on the website too.

Erika Lust: Wonderful. Well, I’m all over the place. I was about to say but really clear, but I’m out there on the internet. My main website is erikalust.com. Erika with a K. But then if you want to go and share your confessions, I would recommend you to go to xconfessions.com where you can also see trailers of my films, making ofs and read other users’ confessions. They’re very entertaining. I love to read the confessions. But they’re so funny. I mean, people have so many ideas. When you read them, you really realize that the porn narratives that we’ve been told again and again and again – they’re very poor. The pizza guy, the jail owner with all the teenage girls in his jail. The mafia with the limousine – those stories are super boring. When you go to Xconfessions, you will be amazed by all these fabulous stories by people. Then of course, I’m on. I’m on Twitter. I’m on Instagram. I’m on Facebook. I’m on Tumblr. You’ll find me under @erikalust.

Dawn Serra: Awesome. I will have links to everything that you just mentioned, and including The Porn Conversation on dawnserra.com/ep145 for this episode. Erika, I want to thank you so much for joining the show and sharing all of your stories and experiences, and aesthetic with the listeners. It’s something I’m really excited for everyone to go check out.

Erika Lust: Thank you so much. Now I just remembered one thing more that I actually have another new site that we just premiered. It’s interesting because it’s called eroticfilms.com. And what I’m doing there is that I’m gathering a lot of different independent films that you can actually… They’re served on demand. If you don’t want to be a subscriber, a member, and all that formula, you can just go there and download the one film that you want to watch.

Dawn Serra: Oh, I love it. Okay, eroticfilms.com will also be on the website so everyone can check that out and all of the amazing filmmakers who are doing wonderful work to change the porn conversation.

Erika Lust: Definitely not the only one. There’s many and many more coming. If you’re a filmmaker and you have a great idea, please write to me because maybe I can produce your film.

Dawn Serra: I love that invitation. I hope somebody takes you up on it. Well, I want to thank all of our listeners for tuning in, please go to dawnserra.com/ep145 to learn more about Erika or to share a story or a question with me. Thank you so much, Erika, for joining us and I will talk to all of you next week. Bye.

Erika Lust: Bye bye.

Dawn Serra: Don’t hit stop yet. It’s time for a second listener confession. So here comes a voiceover actor reading Brian’s confession all about how he got his first prostate orgasm. Don’t forget to head to patreon.com/sgrpodcast to support me. Also don’t forget, make sure you’re on the newsletter so that you can get all of your confessions and for February, there’s a brand new theme, and I can’t wait to hear from you.

Listener Confession: “It’s been an interesting few months in our lives. In August, my wife and I took a trip to the Dominican without our kids to celebrate our 20th year being married. I made clear one of my desires was to be “pegged in paradise” and my wife agreed. So I packed up all the gear in my suitcase and made it through customs. On our last night there, the night the fun was supposed to go down, she drank too much during the day and pretty much passed out for the night. She felt bad and promised to make it up to me when we got home. Of course, the real world caught up to us and it was several weeks before we were able to find some time and energy to play.”

“One of the interesting things that came out of that pegging session is that I nearly came hand three. I started on my stomach and eventually she got tired. I offered to ride her cowboy style with me on top. While doing that, I felt the urge to cum without the benefit of stroking my cock. But my legs got tired, and I couldn’t quite get over the hump. Eventually, we ended up with her jerking me off all over her gorgeous lingerie-clad tits. I told my wife how excited I was to be that close to the legendary hands-free orgasm. On Thursday, I texted her and told her I had a number of requests for this weekend, including number one: Take your time. Number two: Feel free to use any toy you like. If I don’t like it, I’ll stop you. Number three: In the beginning and until I request, keep the actual penis touching to a minimum. I’d really like to focus on the other sensations. Number four: If you feel inclined, I totally grant you permission to be bossy and take over. Dirty language is encouraged. Number five: Much like I was focusing on your G-spot a few weeks ago, I’d like you to focus on my P-spot. Take your time to explore. Most importantly, number six: Please find time to flirt with me during all this. It’s important to me because it shows me that you’re enjoying this, not just doing it for me. And that makes it more fun for me, knowing it’s fun for you. She texted back with a smiley face and said, “I’m looking forward to teasing you.”

Listener Confession: “Saturday arrived and we got busy in the house. I texted her while she was out running errands, “Hey, sexy. I can’t stop thinking about tonight.” She replied, “I’m so looking forward to it.” So after a day of family stuff and watching sports, my wife and I retired to the bedroom. She slipped on a pair of lacy satin blue panties, a plain white men’s tank top. The tank hugs her curves and for as cheap as those things are, it really turned me on. After kissing and cuddling for a few minutes, she puts on a latex glove and lubes up her fingers, and gently began prodding my ass. I was lying on my back with my knees up and feet on the bed. We communicated very well and talked about what felt good, what pinched, what felt sore. She tried different fingers, different angles, and eventually, we found a position that felt really good.” 

“She has short fingers, so her finger was the only one long enough to reach deep. But I found if she laid her hand just right, I was able to bounce my hips up and down, and literally fuck myself with our fingers. The feeling was quite intense. I could feel the sensations from her fingers in my ass on my swollen prostate, all the way to the tip of my penis. I kept asking if I was oozing fluid for her, but not a lot was coming out. It sure felt like it was though. As the sensations grew, I felt something new. A feeling like I was going to cum but the muscles in my crotch were not contracting like a typical orgasm. I fiercely bounced on her fingers, my chest rapidly contracting, my body clenching – all the sensations of an intense orgasm without the squeezing in my cock and balls, and ejaculation. Intense waves of pleasure gripping my body. It’s really hard to describe, but I just had my first hands-free orgasm, no ejaculation hardly any fluid came out, but I’ll be damned if I didn’t have one of the most intense orgasms I’ve ever had.”

Listener Confession: “I had her pull her hand out and I caught my breath. I told her what I was feeling and told her I was pretty sure that I wanted her fingers in me more to see if we can do it again. So we lubed up her fingers and went back to work. And within a few minutes, much faster than I anticipated. She brought me back to the same intense feelings again. Now, I was basking in the fact that not only had I discovered how to have hands-free orgasms. Now, I was a guy who had multi-orgasms as well. She asked me if I wanted to try the Njoy wand as well. Having used this numerous times for solo play, I eagerly agreed. She slid the wand inside my ass and we went to work. When I asked her to push the wand deeper, the feelings got more intense. Having already had two orgasms. My body was primed for more and within 5 to 10 minutes, she found the perfect spot. Faster, firmer, slower. We worked that wand until it was just right. And she curled that fucking thing inside my ass, and gave me another cumless orgasm. My legs were quivering in shock and she pulled the wand from me.”

“I want more.” “You do?” she asked. “I’m greedy. Now that I know I can have multiples like you. I want more.” “Aren’t you a greedy little cum slut.” “Oh yes, sexy. Please make me cum again.” So back into my ass went the wand, pushing it back to the deepest part of me, stroking and teasing my prostate. Within a few short minutes, I felt the orgasm building again, building and building and then it started to fade. “So close. Deeper.” I begged, “Fuck me like a little cum slut I am.” She pushed deeper and my whole body exploded. As the orgasm within me built towards climax, I begged her, “Stroke my cock and make me cum!” My cock, only semi-aroused, sprang to life in her hand, with her left hand pushing the one deep into my ass, right on the backside of my prostate and her right hand stroking my cock – waves and waves of pleasure crashed over my body. I was cumming so hard, I had to force myself to breathe. My body locked down and came so hard. The sensations in my ass and torso were so intense, I barely remember feeling the sensations that came along my cock when it’s shot ropes have come all over my body and hers.”

Listener Confession: “I was able to look up between my legs and see her face. So excited to witness incredible pleasure she was giving me. My fourth and final orgasm was the most intense of all. I lay there in a daze. She rose from the bed and washed up. She brought me a warm towel, and I really had no desire to clean up. My brain scrambled, my body a wreck, in awe of what just happened. Eventually, I got up and got ready for bed. I curled up into her and cuddled. I thanked her and told her that I had literally never felt anything like that in my life. I said, ‘Now I know what it’s like when I make you cum over and over.’ She laughed and replied, ‘Yeah, it’s pretty great, isn’t it?’ After a night like that, it looks like she’s due to get another multi-orgasmic night, just like mine very, very soon.”